The Elitist Attitude.

I agree with you 100%!

Except! I am not an elitist by any means. That's just some word that people who have a different opinion than me use to make themselves feel better.  

People are calling Obama an elitist right now for the same reason. They disagree. It's a political tactic and I refuse to buy into it.

I'm not elitist, I just believe in responsible breeding. That doesn't make me elitist, it just means that I'm respectful of the canine species and take my responsibility to them, as a human being, seriously.

I agree with you and Four. The test is the careful and purposeful breeding. Shadow is a great dog, as far as I can see. And his breeding should not have taken place. Near as I can tell, it was a byb who either thought it would be neat to cross Husky with Lab or had an oops litter, fully assured that he could maintain and care for intact animals. Either way, the man showed his irresponsibility. Which is not to say that some out-breeding doesn't have validity. The purebreeding also has validity even though it has attached genetic risks, as well. I wouldn't say you are elitist. Simply supportive of proper, ethical, researched breeding. But, the slow process of education is the only hope we have of decreasing stupid breeding.

 I also agree 150%!  I'll accept any label someone wants to put on me for my belief in responsible breeding AND OWNERSHIP, and dedication to rescue.  I've been called worse and I'm fine with it. 

Truley

I have been accused of being an elitist,

I cannot support an organization that has a foster who thinks that people should be allowed to breed "just because", these groups spend thousands of dollars rehabilitation dogs to go to forever homes, and I find it incomprehensible that they would allow this.

II have nothing against breeders that are trying to improve breed(s) issues,

Why are you ashamed, embarrassed, or trying to deny that you and the others here are elitist when it comes to dog breedig.  Just because a select few have created a definition of responsible breeding doesn't mean its the absolute and only way to conduct responsible breeding.  As I have stated in the other thread I have no problem with a family deciding to breed their family pet as long as they take responsibility for the litter. Also it looks to me you just created another excuse not to help the shelter dog and rescue goods.  Thats ok, that your choice, no one is making you help the shelter dog.

Here's the definition:

lit·ism or é·lit·ism   // ", "6";); interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false";); interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high";); interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false";); interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t";); interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fahd4%2FE%2FE0089600.mp3";); interfaceflash.write(); // ]]>  Audio Help   (ĭ-lē'tĭz'əm, ā-lē'-)  Pronunciation Key 
n.  

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2. 1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
   2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

Truley

If that makes me an Elitist, so be it.

 If being an "elitist" means being supportive of responsible, ethical breeding, then you can count yourself amongst many.
 

And allow me to be even more elitist and even, maybe, didactic.

It is not upon us to help support mindless, unplanned breeding. Yes, we can help someone with an impending litter and whelping ahead. But, and this is due to my upbringing, there are general rules to follow. That being said, I don't think dogs should be bred for color or a particular structure or conformation, except as it relates to their workability and temperment. To whit, with my favorite breed, Siberian Huskies. For the longest time, they were not bred for conformation or color or even strong obedience. They were bred to pull hard and run fast and get along with the family. Period. Dogs that couldn't breed exhibit the desired traits did not get to breed. Culls were culled, sometimes abruptly. I'm not saying we need to pts the defectives, but we can achieve the culling by spaying and neutering before another defective generation arrives.

Nor should we support someone's desire to breed just becauese they want to breed. Per my upbringing, "if you can't play nicely, you can't play at all." Translation, if you're not going to do it right, you don't get to do it at all. Is that unfair? Heck yes. You can go to your room and cry.

Also, "anything worth doing is worth doing right. If you can't do it right, get out of the way so that someon else can do it right." Self-explanatory. Some things one is just not good at, no matter how strong the desire. Unfair? Sure, here's a kleenex.

So, while we may wish to help someone in a predicament, I think it's a desire (decided by one's personal responsibility) to caution and avoid future problems.

Slightly to the other side of the debate, in spite of or regardless of the seemingly haphazard nature of Shadow's breeding, he has turned out to be a generally good dog, so far. A roll of the dice. But that still doesn't mean that his parents should have bred or that he should breed, though we had offers based soley on looks. But he is neutered and there will be no more lovely pups from his "line," whatever that may be. And that decision was based in part from what I learned of here in regard to proper ethical breeding. Many were not afraid to "judge" or condemn wrong breeding and it allowed me to examine my motives, understanding, and finally, just what good breeding is all about. The dogs do not live in the wild, controlled only by nature's drive to procreate. They live with us and are our responsibility.

Maybe I am elitist. In a similar vein, I don't think JQP should work on electrical stuff unless they have trained with someone who is already qualified. Some things shouldn't be left to chance, if we can help it.

Truley

breeding a favorite pet, mixed breeds, or unproven dogs is ok.

breeding a favorite pet:

 well the only way I would ever do this is under the guidance of an experienced breeder, one that loves the breed and wants to preserve it as it is suppose to be.

mixed breeds:

there are enough accidents already and enough dogs needing homes, I would never even consider breeding mixes and see no reason for it other than perhaps a few mixes bred by hunters for a purpose (like lurchers and such)

unproven:

 I am against it. If there are faults the dog should not be bred, if the dog has not been tested in the area in which it is suppose to function then I would not breed it. This is one thing I have against some show people, they seem to look only at conformation and not ability. A Vizsla or a Dogo that cannot or will not hunt,should never be bred IMO

 As for people with no knowledge breeding, I think that everyone starts out somewhere, most breeders started somewhere and at one time had no knowledge. The important factors are seeking out the people with the knowledge, listening to what they say and making every effort to breed a litter of dogs that are true to their breed. If one is willing to do that then one should have the right to do so. And that means being able to hear someone tell you that your dog is not breeding material. For instance let's take Hektor. I know he has the hunting drive, so I could easily test him, hunt him and prove him in the field, and I would be able to stand him out, but that would be wrong, He has no pigmentation and that is a fault. So in my opinion he would need to fit the standard very well and have the hunting drive and ability.

So am I also an elitist?

Uh? DPU?

Where did I ever say I was ashamed because of it? And show me where I said was embarressed? And I did say I stand corrected, I am elitist. Deal with it.

Just for you DPU!

[edit] Elitism as a pejorative term

The term "elitism" or the title "elitist" can be used resentfully [1] by a person who is not a member of an elite, or is a member but resents the elite position or uses it in a condescending or cynical manner in order to ridicule or criticize practices which discriminate on the basis of ability or attributes. Often, such as in politics, it used to describe persons as out of touch with the common people. The implication is that the "elitist" person or group thinks they are better than everyone else, and therefore put themselves before others. It could be seen as a synonym for snob. An elitist is not always seen as truly elite, but only privileged. This use is often employed in politics in societies where social equality is valued, and the middle and lower classes have political power.

I am better than no one person. I am the common people. You on the other hand, have displayed more of those attributes in your posts than I ever have. So, welcome to the Elitist group. Come in and be welcomed.

FourIsCompany

I agree with you 100%!

Except! I am not an elitist by any means. That's just some word that people who have a different opinion than me use to make themselves feel better.  

People are calling Obama an elitist right now for the same reason. They disagree. It's a political tactic and I refuse to buy into it.

I'm not elitist, I just believe in responsible breeding. That doesn't make me elitist, it just means that I'm respectful of the canine species and take my responsibility to them, as a human being, seriously.

I agree completely!  I am an 'elitist', too when it comes to dog breeding. 

DPU

 As I have stated in the other thread I have no problem with a family deciding to breed their family pet as long as they take responsibility for the litter. Also it looks to me you just created another excuse not to help the shelter dog and rescue goods.  Thats ok, that your choice, no one is making you help the shelter dog.

 How is supporting the breeding of the family pet, to god knows what, for no reason other than to have cute bundles of fur helping the shelter and rescue dog? How many of your fosters were sent to good homes as puppies? How many shelter or rescue dogs started life as "lets have puppies and send them off to good homes" litters?

I have explicit orders for Kord should anything happen to us. First is my neighbor, Kord loves the man, he will care for Kord until the breeder can be contacted. I have a letter for my breeder letting him know this man would make a great owner and would take care of Kord and that we approve. But I don't want him to take him if he really cannot give him the home he needs at the time. My sister is also on the list. She has a signed note from us saying the breeder is to be contacted and that while we would like our neighbor to have first denial, the breeder makes the final decision.

How many breeders of the family pet are willing to take in all the puppies they produce should the "responsible homes" decide they don't want them? or mistreat them? Very very few, and yes there are other breeders out there who won't either, and I know this. I am not naive.

Truley

How many breeders of the family pet are willing to take in all the puppies they produce should the "responsible homes" decide they don't want them? or mistreat them? Very very few, and yes there are other breeders out there who won't either, and I know this. I am not naive.

I would and I am sure I am not the only one that would do that.  That the responsibility part if you choose to have a litter.  Now, educate me by example.  Show me one breeder, any breeder that has taken back ALL the puppies they produced.  This one should be easier, show me a breeder who makes available a complete history of all their dogs that they bred, for example how long lived, cause of death, life time illnesses, behavior and temperment problems.

DPU

I would and I am sure I am not the only one that would do that.  That the responsibility part if you choose to have a litter.  Now, educate me by example.  Show me one breeder, any breeder that has taken back ALL the puppies they produced.  This one should be easier, show me a breeder who makes available a complete history of all their dogs that they bred, for example how long lived, cause of death, life time illnesses, behavior and temperment problems.

Here's one:

Terrydale HK Airedales

My deceased Airedale, Rush, was a pet-quality son of Felix, they could not have been more forthcoming with ALL information and then some and when we were faced with a 6 month assignment to Australia, they kept him for far less than any other boarding facility would have charged just so that we would not have to rehome him and he would be well cared for.  They made sure we were educated about the breed, that it was a good choice for us and remained available to us for questions, problems, issues, etc.  They were and are what I consider to be an exemplary example of a responsible breeder and one that I would support again if I was interested in another Airedale or in purchasing another purebred dog.  But, I'm not.  My home is only open to altered rescue animals now. 

The breeder I got Logan from does this very thing.  I asked about the history of bloat, cancer and other things in her dogs, as well as an temperament problems, not only was upfront and honest about this, she knew dates, how much money was spent, etc.  In the one case of bloat they had, the dog survived, they offered a puppy from their next litter (and have never used a male from the line since nor will they again).  They've taken back several puppies from people who could no longer keep the dog, or had health issues or even death.  In my contract I'm obligated to make arrangements to get him back to them should I no longer be able to keep him for any reason. 

I'm not going to give you a name as I don't feel it's appropriate to expose someone to something they didn't ask to be exposed to (ie. being called "elitist", btw, as a mod I should warn you. Be careful how your word this or you will be inked.)

I consider any breeder who doesn't take the dogs they've made back irresponsible and are breeding for other purpose than the betterment of the breed.  Health, temperament, sound conformation ... and being responsible for the lifetime of the dog is what i call a "reputable breeder."

I challenge you, DPU to prove to us that you've had to rescue a reputably bred dog (by my standards, which is listed above.) .... I'm sure you find most of the dogs that find their way to you are unwanted by someone, yes?  Just to point out all reputably bred dogs are wanted.  If not by their current owner, then by their breeder. 

Sera_J

  Just to point out all reputably bred dogs are wanted.  If not by their current owner, then by their breeder. 

I think that is wishful thinking........ also,the jury is still out on how many breeders are actually responsible breeders.......I am sure the handful examples that will pop up in this thread will try to prove a point......but, that won't even scratch the surface.....

Just to point out, Tanner's breeder had a convo with my vet, met one of my dogs and then was interested in seeing pictures of where her would be raised and kept.