The Elitist Attitude.

Chicken!

DPU

 I believe with 300+ million people in the US, there is room for all the dogs that exist and will be produced.  It irks me when I hear people say things like I can't volunteer because I get too emotional and attached to the dog.  That is fine but why advertise so others can think that way, especially when it is so easy to overcome these excuses.

If there's room for all dogs that exist and will be produced, WHY ARE THERE ANY DOGS IN SHELTERS??????

The people who say they get too attached and don't volunteer or foster generally AREN'T BREEDING AND AREN'T CONTRIBUTING TO THE PROBLEM!!!!

I'm very pro-rescue and generally anti-breeding.  However, there are what I consider to be valid, reasonable purposes to breed a specific breed and some of those purposes are related to just plain companionship.  In my personal case, I needed a hypoallergenic dog which would be more difficult to find in a shelter, mixed breed dog.  Not impossible, but more difficult.  As a family with young children at the time, I needed assurance as to temperament so went with a puppy that was more malleable with training than an older dog might be.  But, in general, I think most dogs shouldn't be bred when there is an abundance of that breed available in shelters and rescue and when there are wonderful, suitable companion animals available without needing to breed to get them. 

None of this discussion or the other thread which sparked it was related to laws or legislation restricting breeding but to judgments and attitudes towards it.  Nothing we say or think is going to necessarily stop a family from breeding their pet, but hopefully, someone thinking about it who hasn't done it yet, might read what's written, do some research about the perils of breeding and the homeless dog situation and decide not to breed.  I hope so.   

BCMixs

If there's room for all dogs that exist and will be produced, WHY ARE THERE ANY DOGS IN SHELTERS??????

Problems have a cause origin and while the origin may be difficult or impossible to fix, there can be other solutions.  Some will place the blame on owners, some will place the blame on breeders, and some will place the blame on the shelters themselves.  As I stated, I believe that if there were more volunteers to help place the dogs, the numbers would be significantly reduced.  So that is why they stay in the shelter and that is why they are PTS, I believe. 

You are absolutely right that nothing we say is going to stop a family from breeding their pet.  When you are talking about what goes on in their home and on top of it, insulting their beloved pet, the intended advise will backfire.  If I wanted to breed my residence dog, I am not accountable to anyone but the law.  But somehow the responses from certain members here are as if there is accountability to a selected few.

Sera_J

  I know great, reputable breeders who would take ANY of their puppies back ANY time for ANY reason.
 

For me, this gets at the heart of what IS a RESPONSIBLE breeder.  To me, anyone who does NOT do the above is simply NOT a responsible breeder.  Case in point - Monks of New Skete.  Famous German Shepherd breeders....definitely on my BLACK list because more than one person heavily involved in GSD rescue has told me that there dogs frequently end up in shelters and they express no concern or willingness to take them back.  I no longer watch their show or will purchase any of their products.  If someone asks me where to get a GSD in New England, I will not recommend them or mention them.  They are not the first or only breeder I've heard of that's supposed to be "good" but has no interest in where their dogs end up.  In contrast, the few breeders on my short list for the future have ALL taken dogs back if the dog did not fit the household or something happened to the owners.  They have ALL kept dogs as pets if the dog had some defect and was not suitable for breeding, rather than sell the dog off b/c it didn't cut it.

Like Truly, GSDs are my breed of choice.  I have spent years searching and researching, joined clubs, meeting GSD people, gone to shows, competed in shows, bla bla bla...and to date my list of responsible German Shepherd breeders in the state of Michigan is....three.  THREE, that's it, and this is my home state so obviously I have spent more time looking around here and meeting people here than places farther away.  Now I cannot speak for the "elites" here, but I have very strict criteria about what is a responsible breeder.  Unfortunately, in this country, only a few seem to meet that criteria, but fortunately, they continue to train, trail, compete, title, show, and breed quality dogs that meet the FCI standard for our breed, with proper temperament, drives, and structure, as they have for decades. 

Also, I really really don't understand why some feel there HAS to be this dichotomy of rescue vs. responsible breeding.  All of the responsible breeders I know support and are active in rescue.  Most of the other dog people I know (not breeders) also have rescued dogs and volunteer for rescues or at shelters.  I have one purebred and one rescue mutt (and three rescued cats, not to mention all the others before them...) and I don't think either one is "better" than the other.  I've spent as much time volunteering at the local shelter and helping rescues as I have taking classes and competing with my purebred.  When we are ready to add another dog, we will entertain all options, not ruling out breeders or rescue dogs, just searching for the *right* dog that fits with our current animals and lifestyle.  For me it's a no-brainer - I love DOGS, period.  I'm just as happy hosing out poopy kennels at the shelter as I am running Kenya through a rally course.  I'll drive an hour and a half to evaluate and pull a dog for rescue just as soon as I'd drive twenty minutes to a dog show.
 

 As I stated, I believe that if there were more volunteers to help place the dogs, the numbers would be significantly reduced.

The problem is, you are assuming that every household in the country WANTS a dog, or is allowed to have a dog (i.e. where they live), or for whatever reason cannot have a dog....unfortunately, not everyone loves dogs as much as people on this board.

DPU

Truley

You stated I was wrong, so go ahead prove me wrong.

You may be out on the edge all by your lonesome.  Lets see what others say.

 I say Truley is right.  There are already enough dogs.  More than enough.  You need a shocking good reason to produce more, you need to feel that you can really contribute to the breed.  You say that's elitist?  I say it's the dogs' due.  It's what we owe them, nothing more. 

DPU

You are absolutely right that nothing we say is going to stop a family from breeding their pet.  When you are talking about what goes on in their home and on top of it, insulting their beloved pet, the intended advise will backfire.  If I wanted to breed my residence dog, I am not accountable to anyone but the law.  But somehow the responses from certain members here are as if there is accountability to a selected few.

Nothing WE say? Your all for it remember? Or have you changed your mind? I have never insulted anyone's pet myself, offered advice, sure, let my feelings know, you betcha, refuse to help or support if they have a litter for no other reason that what I said before, yes. If you want to go ahead and breed your dogs, do it, but your adding to the over population because of YOUR wants, and because you WANT to, does not make it for the right reasons.

By your own admission, if you should bring some cute little puppies into the world, puppies that have would have a chance of winding up in a shelter or foster, you would then expect others to volunteer and help place or rehome them? You just stated not enough do what they can to help the dogs and other animals out there, so bringing more into the world, just because you can, is going to help the situation how?

I hold anyone who has a litter of puppies accountable, they are not accountable to me, but they are accountable to the animals.

As for volunteering? There are many here that do, I try to help out where I can, by making donations or attending events, do not try to make me feel less of a supporter for doing nothing more than what you think is the best.

Wow! What an interesting thread! Allow me to preface this with I am not a breeder. I have done enough research on the subject to know that if I can't do it responsibly then I won't do it at all. That's not to say that I'll never breed a dog in the future, as I'm am on the hunt for a show quality female Boston Terrier, but at this point, I'm more interested in showing in conformation and participating in Rally. With that said, I guess you can call me an "elitist" as well. I do NOT agree with breeding for shites and giggles because I have seen the results of breeding for shites and giggles. I can't see patting someone on the back and telling them "Job well done" for irresponsibly breeding their dogs when the puppy buyer has to decide whether they pay $3000 for corrective, if correctable at all, surgery for HD or euthanize the dog because they really can't afford the surgery. I can't see telling someone "Go ahead and breed your dogs" when some shelters are euthanizing dogs hourly due to a lack of homes. I have spoken to many people who think it's fun and games to breed their dogs. I absolutely do not support such actions and I'll explain why I don't agree with irresponsible breeding. Some people take what I have to say to heart because they didn't realize there's more to breeding than just putting two dogs together and some people do it anyways. Yeah, some may never do it again but a lot of times, they keep irresponsibly breeding ESPECIALLY if they make a nice profit doing so or think that the shelters and rescues will find nice homes for their left over puppies. After all, irresponsible breeders really don't keep track of their puppies so they don't know what health issues may have been passed on and some of them are so clueless about the shelter/rescue overpopulation that they don't even stop to think that some of their puppies have ended up in a dumpster. But I should be supportive of these people and their irresponsible actions? Uh... no.

DPU

That is a pretty powerful stance.  Maybe we all need a refresher course on what improvements were made last year and what seriously wrong thing was taken out of any breed.  Anyone know of any?

PRA in Portugese Water Dogs. I believe at one point a huge percentage of the breed were carriers because of their very small gene pool. (can't remeber if it was small because they almost died out, or a small number of founder dogs.)

Basenjis. Fanconni's (sp??) help AgileBasenjis. They brough in dogs from Africa and basically saved the breed.

There are now genetic tests for PRA for quite a few breeds. Just about every issues or two of the Gazette, is information on some new genetic test available for some breed or another. Last one was for exercise intolerance in Labs. Later I will find some more examples.

I believe that this was started in 2001 with 8 breeds. They now have over 20,000 dogs registered with numbers.

http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/chicinfo.html

 CEA in Collies! We're not rid of it by a long shot, but the number of normal-eyed non-carriers seems to go up every year.

PRA in Cardis is now confined mostly to one line of dogs and their close relatives, but the line is so valuable for other qualities that it won't be eliminated for many years yet- but it's mostly gone.

Spitz have retinal dysplasia and PRA; we don't have a DNA test for the PRA (someday when the breed has a large fancy and money to go with it, maybe a study can be funded to see if it's the same as the PRA in American Eskimo Dogs- I'm very curious about this), but pretty much everyone eye tests. 

Truley

Nothing WE say? Your all for it remember? Or have you changed your mind?

No need to be so nasty.  I have not changed my mind.  I have a huge regret for not breeding Drizzle, a regret for reading posts for not to breed, and now strongly resent approaches like yours.  No other foster, no other Great Dane that I have met, can match Blizzard and Drizzle's breed qualities and standards as I have defined them.  My personal standards as opposed to the bigwigs standards.  I would make sure the litter was taken care of and most likely would not have given up a single one.  Thats history and whats left is regret and resentment.

I actually think that threads like this are very eye opening.  I have often seen breeding threads were people wonder why in Europe they are able to have many unaltered dogs and yet do not have the pet overpopulation that we do.  Well, some of the attitudes displayed in this and other threads are the reason.  *I* think my dog is great.  *I* want puppies.  *I* don't care what anyone that knows more than I do about breeding says.  *I* surely know better than those snobs.  "Good" breeders sometimes have problems with their dogs so therefore that somehow makes me even *more* entitled to breed *my* dog.  So *I'm* gonna breed *my* dog and if anyone disagrees then they're just "elitists" (calling people this is a way to try to discount what they are saying, and allows the accuser to edge themselves into the role of "victim" of the "evil" elitists).

This attitude is also a hurdle for all of those fighting spay/neuter legislation (coming soon to a city near you).  If I were a legislator and didn't have such a libertarian streak, a thread like this would have me thoroughly convinced that some sort of breeding restrictions were needed in my community--especially one with dog population issues.
 

DPU

I have a huge regret for not breeding Drizzle, a regret for reading posts for not to breed, and now strongly resent approaches like yours.

And I don't believe in demonism. No one here made you not breed. You decided that based on the info at the time. Or, if I tell you to go jump in the lake, are you going to do it and then blame me because you cut your foot on a rock?

DPU

I would make sure the litter was taken care of and most likely would not have given up a single one.

I do believe that. Welcome to the elite club of people who breed for breed standard, even if you decided to breed to a better standard, such as stronger heart.

BTW, there are a few different orgs and people that believe that breeding should be function over form. I believe in function over form. And yes, I agree that some purebreeding has weakened some lines. A few years ago, there was a line of Sibes that were going blind by age 3. That's a result, imo, of breeding for a specific color and weight to fit in the AKC breed standard. And I've seen two breed standards for Sibes. The AKC would reject Shadow but the larger one could allow for his size, even if that size is a result of the Lab influence. He's just a big dog but if his structure is right for the job and his temperment is good for being around humans and some other animals, so be it, though I doubt the soi-disant breeder had that in mind.

Even you can appreciate the function of a better heart over the form of a "show winning" harlequin pattern. You've just admitted that you would breed for a specific purpose and not just the desire to have an arm full of pups and would be quite willing to keep the whole litter if you couldn't place them elsewhere. That one of your goals would be a stronger heart, which would certainly better the breed. That sounds like a responsible breeder. How does it feel to be an elitist?

DPU

Thats history and whats left is regret and resentment

That's up to you. We are not responsible for how you feel about that.

My gosh, I've been involved in the breeding world my entire life and I would not condone just *any family* breeding their pet because they feel like it. But I cannot for the life of me believe that anybody in rescue would hold that view, and then turn around and argue that if *we* (those working their hides off, tooth and nail, to preserve canine health and longevity) aren't in rescue, then we are not helping the issue? Honestly, I'm sickened at the thought, and I thank my life that most rescues that I know ensure the dogs are neutered/spayed before they ever go to their foster homes or their forever homes.

Once again, call me what you like, but I'll be proud to be called elitist if that means only supporting the careful, controlled, responsible breeding of animals. If I were ever to become a full-time breeder in the future, I could only hope to be the type of breeder that my mother is. Because thankfully, due to her hard work and time, we have never had a puppy that needed to be returned to the breeder, or that ended up in a shelter, due to careful screening, contracts, and regular updates (if they don't give 'em, we went looking for them). Who has summer get-togethers of upwards of 20 minis or more from past litters. Who looks forward to those pictures at Xmas or at litter birthdays.