The Elitist Attitude.

Kim_MacMillan

My gosh, I've been involved in the breeding world my entire life and I would not condone just *any family* breeding their pet because they feel like it. But I cannot for the life of me believe that anybody in rescue would hold that view, and then turn around and argue that if *we* (those working their hides off, tooth and nail, to preserve canine health and longevity) aren't in rescue, then we are not helping the issue? Honestly, I'm sickened at the thought, and I thank my life that most rescues that I know ensure the dogs are neutered/spayed before they ever go to their foster homes or their forever homes.

Your view does not surprise me at all.  You have absolutely no say-so as to what goes on in my house and whether or not I chose to breed my family pet.  I am in rescue and as a volunteer I save the shelter dog.  I see no connection with that effort and me wanting to breed my family pet.  As a matter of fact the two goes hand in hand because the responsibility that is taken on is the same.  You give the dog a lifetime care commitment once they enter your house.  Now, how about you....how many fosters are in your house....how many have you placed?  My ratio is something like 40 dogs rescued to 0 dogs bred.  What is your ratio? 

If I may be so bold, why don't you personally list the breed improvements or the eliminations of health issues since you have been involved in breeding your entire life.  I must say you and your fellows don't do enough and don't do it fast enough.  It may for all we know be just a hobby, an addictive hobby to you and have nothing to do at all with the betterment of the dog, but producing just cute puppies.

whtsthfrequency

Also it looks to me you just created another excuse not to help the shelter dog and rescue goods. Thats ok, that your choice, no one is making you help the shelter dog.

 
What on earth...."another excuse" not to help shelter dogs? What are these other excuses? Every post seems to either be calling peoplel elitist or telling them they are horrible because they supposedly don't want to help shelter/rescue dogs, and how somehow that is tied to pushing for limited and responsible breeding....that makes no sense whatsoever.

If there is any elitism going on here, it is you on your high horse telling everyone else that they can never measure up to you because you are the best rescuer ever..... " I feel I am contributing in a big way to help that situation." how does it feel hanging there on that cross?

 I do agree that some breeds have been damaged by people acting as "elitists" and breeding for "form over function" ( I have a "function" breed myself that has never, ever been bred for color or ear shape or anything like that....hunting ability supercedes ALL) - but if bigwigs breeding for only form to conform to an arbitrary breed standard (i.e. form over function, you mentioned pretty white Danes with bad hearts), how does it make a family who breeds their own dog for "form/sentimental value over function" any better?

 
That mini poodle might have a congenital mitral valve defect, but it is so cute (insert: proper hair coat, proper legs, etc) that they are breeding it anyway....how is that fine and dandy?

a lot of this made sense to me and i am basically in this camp.

if you're a "reputable" breeder then does that JUST entail that you are breeding registered dogs and are willing to take back anywhere from 6 to 12 puppies/adult dogs at the drop of a hat? What if you're a reputable St. Bernard breeder who didnt predict what ever health problem? does that mean you'll also pay, oh i dont know... couple thousand dollars to cover the cost of expensive medical procedures on a "lost cause" puppy when the buyer comes back to you, or will just tsk tsk and offer them a free puppy next time? i would LOVE to meet someone who breeds large breeds and has taken back an entire litter, or at the very least four or five adults from past litters all at one time.

i think most of that is just drivel... i know some breeders do take their dogs back... good on them for making up contracts and keeping up with buyers! but i think a lot of it is all talk and trying to look the purist. what if there isnt room for eight adolescent GSDs at this breeders house? do they call a rescue or have them euthed? or do they cram them all into kennels until they have time to address the problem properly?

i dont mean to sound condescending but its nearly impossible unless you DO own several kennels and do nothing at all during the day but take care of the dogs.

** 

and YES i want to get my wooden spoon after these "elitists" that breed to a standard that totally nixes a working ability just so they can win the latest ribbon at the dog show. they wanna look down at the Victorian Bulldogs, Olde English Bulldogges, and others of the like because there is some out crossing while their pudgy snorting half pint show bulldogs drag their bellies across the thresh hold. but, hey! at least these are proper AKC dogs! hypocrites...

and i also say YES there are homes aplenty for all the pound puppies in the US, but not many people want more than one dog. My husband is one of them. my inlaws have a big backyard with a great fence... but they would rather have squirrels and birds and wild bunnies back there instead of some dumb dog that will poop and dig holes.Not many want a large dog, or a furry dog, or a dog with bad health, or attitude problem, or no obedience training what so ever. i think thats why this shepherd puppy ended up on my lawn.... she is a NIGHTMARE!!! well... she WAS a nightmare. she has settled down somewhat... but if she had ended up in the pound she would probably still be sitting there bouncing off the kennel walls and mouthing anyone brave enough to go in there with her. how would a dog like her find her way into a pet home? Amber, my JRT, almost ended up in the pound because she attacked a labrador and bit her owner. i didnt breed her - she came from some distant relatives who oopsed their pet shop JRT with their mutt terrier. i raised her for the first three years then had to find a friend to care for her for the next three years. i even posted my frustration in this forum when these dip sticks told me i couldnt handle her and didnt want to give her back. fortunately my husband is a fast talker and can pretty much bend people to his will.. and here she is.. shedding on my carpet, dripping water from her mustache, and looking cute as can be. But in the pound? well she might have found a home.... but not if they found out she has a "small dog complex"... Amber cannot be trusted to be alone with another female dog either.

If i was still working like i was three years ago i would NOT be able to own more than one dog. Absolutely impossible and unfair to have three extra dogs that need walking and attention. We had Kaydee and no others when my oldest son was born and she was nearly all we could handle at times. would that make me a bad person though, because i decide the responsible thing is to NOT have more than one dog? shortly after that (Thank God for maternity leave!) we got the GSD rescue and then moved to the country and i'm still a stay-at-home mom.

** 

NOW from a sporting perspective, Amber is a real go-getter (actually all my dogs are) when it comes to vermin. she can track deer and wounded game. she is also a little ace when it comes to retrieving game, and she doesnt harangue the live stock any time they get loose (that only happened once and she has since learned). in my book she is worth breeding! BUT she has been altered and rightfully so. there are two halves of this "breeding responsibly" game. Amber and her abilities as a sporting dog are truly amazing at times! but i dont think i could find her match in this country. not a purebred anyway. all the jacks i know of are petshop puppies or BYB disasters. Not that she wasnt one herself.... but she turned out pretty damned good for being one Still... Amber was an accident, yes, and who knows if ALL of her abilities would have been passed on? Her dad was a little jerk and her mom was an airhead. Amber is an oddity of nature lol!

my stance on breeding is: Dont do it unless you have about a dozen people saying "Your dog is the greatest! i love the way he/she works, i would love to have one just like that to take with me out to the field!" and i wouldnt sell my pups. they would be GIVEN to these people that would care for them, and actually do the intended job with them and would also not be afraid to come back to me if they had a problem. i would exhaust all possibilities to repair the situation before taking the dog back and i would (considering the circumstances) offer to keep the dog until they were in a position to get it back. and if they couldnt then i would seek another home for them where they would be useful. i did that last summer with my cousin's American Bulldog. she was getting divorced and living in a two room apartment with her three kids and her dad. i also kept her chihuahua... on top of that i got Amber back at the same time, plus had Kaydee and Ben. My husband didnt like the arrangement but i told him it was only for a little while. plus my cousin paid for the food and came out nearly every weekend to keep in touch with her dogs. i am not scared of having more than one dog. thats what i'm used to.... for the better part of my life i always had at least seven or more dogs nearby. yep. seven. no not breeders. i'm just used to having a pack of dogs trailing behind me. my husband on the other hand isnt used to that and hates that we have so many. but seeing as how i'm the one doing the feeding and grooming he hasnt got much reason for complaining.

So thats just what i would do.... i dont know if thats right or wrong.... but i dont plan on being a "breeder".. at least not in the common context of the word. i do want to get to know a local american bulldog kennel. She and her husband work their dogs in shows, PP events, and in the field but i've been too busy lately to do any of that.
i dont want to EVER be one of those people that feels compelled to breed their dog more than once just because they feel "Elite" and worthy of the practice. The lifespan of most working dogs is a long one if you're careful and considerate. so one breeding per one dog's lifetime would be plenty for me and its the same for most people who actually work their dogs.

right now i see a lot of "kids" jumping the gun with their working dogs. 10 months of age and they're looking for a stud or b*tch to line their dog with. their logic is "He/she came from good working lines! and no i havent worked him yet, but i know he can do the job! i want to show him off and breed now while he/she still looks good or gets killed doing his job!"
now how much sense does that make?? like i said... kids..... and boy do they get mad when someone whispers some logic in their ears. its mostly about pride and instant gratification. KIDS!!!
 

DumDog

i know some breeders do take their dogs back... good on them for making up contracts and keeping up with buyers! but i think a lot of it is all talk and trying to look the purist.

Then they're not good breeders. If they won't take their dog back, that's not a reputable breeder. I know for a fact that mine would. I know many who have taken back dogs that didn't work out for whatever reason and they find them other homes. That's just part of the expectation in my mind of a good breeder.  

My ratio is something like 40 dogs rescued to 0 dogs bred.  What is your ratio?

*content removed, personally directed*

As far as I'm concerned, the people who actually adopt the dogs are the ones who rescue them. They are the ones making the lifetime commitment to the dogs. Fostering is a great thing, but it's not the same as making a lifetime commitment to the welfare of a dog.

My ratio is 1:1.   I have actually rescued 2 dogs and I have 2 dogs from an elitist reputable breeder.

FourIsCompany

DumDog

i know some breeders do take their dogs back... good on them for making up contracts and keeping up with buyers! but i think a lot of it is all talk and trying to look the purist.

 

Then they're not good breeders. If they won't take their dog back, that's not a reputable breeder. I know for a fact that mine would. I know many who have taken back dogs that didn't work out for whatever reason and they find them other homes. That's just part of the expectation in my mind of a good breeder.  

FourIsCompany

DumDog

i know some breeders do take their dogs back... good on them for making up contracts and keeping up with buyers! but i think a lot of it is all talk and trying to look the purist.

 

Then they're not good breeders. If they won't take their dog back, that's not a reputable breeder. I know for a fact that mine would. I know many who have taken back dogs that didn't work out for whatever reason and they find them other homes. That's just part of the expectation in my mind of a good breeder.  

  Like i said, good one them but its my very firm opinion that ALL BREEDERS should rescue. if they did that then we probably wouldnt have as many issues as we do today with unwanted pets or need as many breed rescues. its a sort of "looking after your own" way of thinking. and the most responsible thing would be to euth or alter the dog that throws the genetic mishap or is carrying said genetic mishap.... if you have more than half your litter quality marked as "pets" only then you need to examine your breeding pair!!!
  My cousin and her mom (the breeders) bought two rotti pups (male and fem.) from a woman who was selling them as AKC oops puppies. both parents were papered but their mom had a white patch on her chest (which is not allowed i think)... so why wasnt this female spayed??? if she KNEW she had a defect in her genes then shouldnt she make sure it wouldnt be procreated? now she's just sold two puppies to the biggest BYB breeders in the state of Florida!

Now.... i know about the history of some dogs, they must look a certain way or colour.... but again.. a rotti is supposed to be a working dog.. it shouldnt matter if it has a white patch. but since most of them are pets and yard ornaments, or show dogs.... it matters a whole lot! to me, a rotti is just a black and tan bulldog from Germany. they share a lot of the same qualities and did much of the same work.

but i know i'll get flamed for even making the comparison or saying it wouldnt matter if they did breed rotts with white patches or red and tan markings. simply because its against the standard.

but let me say this... Duddley noses (red noses) was a major fault in English Bulldogs back in the beginning, but screw tails or NO tails were not. and now we have bulldogs that get skin infections because they cant poop properly. i think they faulted the wrong end of the dog!!

DumDog

its my very firm opinion that ALL BREEDERS should rescue.

Can you tell me what you mean here? Sorry. I'm not understanding something. Breeders should rescue?  

FourIsCompany

Then they're not good breeders. If they won't take their dog back, that's not a reputable breeder. I know for a fact that mine would. I know many who have taken back dogs that didn't work out for whatever reason and they find them other homes. That's just part of the expectation in my mind of a good breeder.  

So they would be considered good breeders up until they refuse to take a dog back.  And then when they take a dog back at a future date then they are back to being a good breeder?  Wouldn't a family who bred their precious pet  and accepted a return be considered a good breeder.

I guess I am a good fosterer because in all the dogs that I have fostered only one adopter wanted to return the dog, and the dog came back to me.

yes. if you breed then you should also have a place for the unwanted member of your breed of choice.

it goes with the saying that i dont think a dog should be bred more than once in its lifetime anyway.

DumDog

yes. if you breed then you should also have a place for the unwanted member of your breed of choice.

it goes with the saying that i dont think a dog should be bred more than once in its lifetime anyway.

Carla, I'm actually asking and not looking to offend, but I can't seem to word this in a way that's totally neutral, so please believe me that I am honestly asking and not trying to offend anyone.. I know pretty much zilch about GSDs, but isn't a long coat against breed standards and impractical for working? So how can someone be a reputable breeder of long-coat GSDs?

FourIsCompany

As far as I'm concerned, the people who actually adopt the dogs are the ones who rescue them. They are the ones making the lifetime commitment to the dogs. Fostering is a great thing, but it's not the same as making a lifetime commitment to the welfare of a dog.

My ratio is 1:1.   I have actually rescued 2 dogs and I have 2 dogs from an elitist reputable breeder.

That is one way to look at it.  I wonder what the term is when one discards the life time commitment made to the dog that if something happens, you can come back to my home.  The breeder who does this gets descriptors attached such as good, reputable, and responsible.  I wonder if the title of this thread is appropiate for this view. 

Is there *anyone* you would discourage from breeding, then? What about owners of dogs with severe congenital defects (even though they may be "perfect" by the owners standards- you said the dog being perfect in the owner's eyes is all that matters, right?) who would produce sick, unthrifty pups who would likely suffer their whole lives? A person who owns two aggressive, unfixed dogs who consider their dogs perfect, should be encouraged to breed and supported?

 You said in the other thread that when peoiple breed the family dog, it is usually a "one time thing"....it most absolutely is not. The problem is, the next breedings are out of negligence. They keep pumping out puppies (oh, this time it was the neighbors dog. oh, we're not sure whp got toher this time) and youi has better believe that eventually pups WILL end up in shelters. Especially if the dog in question is of poor temperament or has health defects.

No one will buy up a litter of  HD pups. No one will buy up a litter of hemophiliac pups. And I don't think the average family is going to keep 8 new dogs. Shelter ahoy. Forget health testing - the dog is *perfect* in the families eyes!

 

I can supply an understanding to this. Not the best source, but a source.

http://www.leerburg.com/longhair.htm