The Elitist Attitude.

chelsea_b

Carla, I'm actually asking and not looking to offend, but I can't seem to word this in a way that's totally neutral, so please believe me that I am honestly asking and not trying to offend anyone.. I know pretty much zilch about GSDs, but isn't a long coat against breed standards and impractical for working? So how can someone be a reputable breeder of long-coat GSDs?

I'm of the opinion that there are different standards out there.  GSD's are from, of course, Germany and the German standard allows for LH's.  They can also be shown at specific German Shepherd shows here in the States. My Rally/Confo trainer does Schutzhund and shows her LH's in those venues.  Blue weimaraners are also not allowed, currently, under the AKC, but there is a faction fighting for them, so while there are dogs that don't conform color-wise to the AKC standard there is a little more to consider, unless there is health problems to consider (such as lethal whites, etc.)  But you'd need to research the breed to recognize something like a blue being acceptable in the country of origin and hype "buy this RARE colored dog..." type thing. 

 I realize this was very off topic... if we'd like to discuss the virtues along these lines, let's start a new thread, if anyone is interested in continuing the conversation of standards.
 

 That is one way to look at it.  I wonder what the term is when one discards the life time commitment made to the dog that if something happens, you can come back to my home. The breeder who does this gets descriptors attached such as good, reputable, and responsible

 
You completely twisted her statement

She was referring to how adopters of rescue dogs are by definition making a lifelong commitment. Fosters within an organization may change homes and rotate, but an adopted dog will not (and should not, obviously!)

She was NOT saying breeders should cut contact with pups when they sell them to buyers because they are now the buyers responsibility. She wasn't even talking about breeders.

whtsthfrequency

Is there *anyone* you would discourage from breeding, then?

I would have discouraged myself from breeding Blizzard, a pigment challenged, deaf, all white Great Dane, but that choice was taken away from me.  The best dog one could have and with over hundreds of people meeting her, they would all agree.  People have good judgement.  I do.  I may or may not have gotten one Blizzard out of the littler but the risk would be too great.  Now Drizzle is a different story.  I may have gotten another Drizzle but also another Blizzard.

One of the points that your fellows make when trying to hammer the new member is that its a lot of work, a lot of worry, messy, sleepless night, etc.  After this experience, one would think twice about going through this experience again, unless you all made that up.

My experience says that there is a home waiting for all, they just need placement help.  I had not problem placing a HD dog.  My rescue org had no problem placing a blind/deaf elder cockerspaniel.  Old Mr. Chow had stomach cancer and he lived his last few months in a loving home.  Need more stories showing there are a place for every dog?  Care to help with the placement?  Thats the best shelter solution for now.

So are you saying Health Testing will guarantee the health for the entire life of the dog....no cancer....no spine problem....no vision or hearing loss....no allergies...no immune deficiency problem....all health issues?

Is there *anyone* you would discourage from breeding, then? What about owners of dogs with severe congenital defects (even though they may be "perfect" by the owners standards- you said the dog being perfect in the owner's eyes is all that matters, right?) who would produce sick, unthrifty pups who would likely suffer their whole lives? A person who owns two aggressive, unfixed dogs who consider their dogs perfect, should be encouraged to breed and supported?.......

No one will buy up a litter of  HD pups. No one will buy up a litter of hemophiliac pups. And I don't think the average family is going to keep 8 new dogs. Shelter ahoy. Forget health testing - the dog is *perfect* in the families eyes!

Oh wait, wait, I forgot. Breeding and genetics is a "crapshoot" anyways, so genetic conditions aren't important

Right. How dare the breeding "elitists interfere with nature" by trying to keep congenital conditions out of the line. Those terrible people. By your logic we should not discriminate against anything. No rules, no standards, and dog should be bred Enjoy your new thousands of new HD and CHF Danes.

 From the other thread, but relevant:

DPU: " I am not convinced that such things as conformation, genetic testing, or having the right stud as defined by a few is really for the betterment of the dog.  The betterment of the Great Dane would be a stronger heart but the focus is on color, size, .....thats the reality"

 
So how are we supposed to move towards Danes with better hearts if we do not focus on breeding some but not others?   How are we supposed to move towards less HD without PennHip and OFA? No genetic condition testing at all? Because it's discriminatory, right!

People breeding the family dog and therefore contributing to the breed don't need to do health testing  if they consider their dog "perfect" in their own view?

Whtsth frequency, why don't think in terms of why people breed.  Is it safe to say that "reputable" breeders are always in search for the Holy Grail, the perfect dog or the dog that will win the mostly highly prized dog shows.  Is providing stud services or sales of breeding adults second and then lastly supply pets to families.  I can't speak for all families that want to breed their family pets, but I think it is safe to say that some want to just produce a pet quality dog,  

why don't think in terms of why people breed.

 
There are several reasons, the top three being these: People breed for money, people breed out of selfishness, and people breed because they want to provide people with sound, healthy dogs, as best they can possibly predict, either as working dogs, pet dogs, or show dogs. Why do you think so many breeders have spay/neuter clauses? Because they are selling most, if not all - of their dogs as pets.

In fact, that is what the VAST majority of breeder produced dogs are - sold as pets. Only once in a while does one come along that the breeder wants to keep to further the line.
 

And no, health testing can't predict everything, like a meteor crashing to earth, but it can (and has) drastically cut down on various conditions. So you still say health testing isn't necessary? Because it isn't for 100% certain, only 95%?

 
Care to help out with placement? You want to play a stat war? In the past three years I have fostered and placed 11 dogs, 15 cats, 7 reptiles of various species, bottle raised and adopted out 8 neonatal kittens and currently am raising two 3 week olds. That's three years, mind you.  I may remind you that I am 23, a full time student with a weekend and evening job which I work entirely to take care of my fosters/own animals, living  frugally off government educational loans in a two bedroom apartment (the second bedroom belonging to various animals), and have a dog-aggressive dog who makes fostering other dogs an even bigger task, as well as my own cat and reptiles. I keep in touch with ALL my adopters, both those who adopt through the foster ring I am a member of or those who adopt from me in particular , write up my own adoption contracts, require spay and neuter proof, etc. I have folders and folder on my computer filled with pictures of all of them. So yes, I'm *doing my part* to answer your insinuation.

Is it safe to say that "reputable" breeders are always in search for the Holy Grail, the perfect dog or the dog that will win the mostly highly prized dog shows. s providing stud services or sales of breeding adults second and then lastly supply pets to families.

No, it isn't safe to say that, because it isn't true, and such a blanket statement that it makes me wonder what you have against breeders.

whtsthfrequency

people breed because they want to provide people with sound, healthy dogs, as best they can possibly predict, either as working dogs, pet dogs, or show dogs.

And why would you think that a family that want to breed their family pet is not capable of doing this.  Surely is not because of the rules for breeding established by the bigwigs of breed clubs.

Weren't you the one that worked in a medical facility that tested vetinary procedures on animals and after the students were done practicing on the live dog, the poor animals were rescued and placed?  Not judging or anything, just remembering. 

Weren't you the one that worked in a medical facility that tested vetinary procedures on animals and after the students were done practicing on the live dog, the poor animals were rescued and placed?

 
No, I am a veterinary student myself and I attend and work at a veterinary school. I work as a weekend technician to clean, feed, exercise, and socialize said dogs, as well as being on call various evenings for theclinical pathology lab. Define "testing veterinary procedures". We practice giving physical exams, listening to hearts and lungs, correct abdominal palpation and orthopedic exam technique,  blood draws, giving injections [saline], administering medication [M&Ms ;) ], intubation, anesthesia, etc.  We don't cut them open and take out their kidneys or their hearts to watch it beat, if that is what you are implying.

 
Not judging or anything, just remembering.

 Sure. It wasn't a snide attack on my credibility at ALL, trying to paint me as some sort of accomplice in horrible animal testing. It was a calculated, specifically worded, low blow. Guess I must have been hitting a nerve and undermining your arguement, such that you would resort to such a sneaky aside. 

And why would you think that a family that want to breed their family pet is not capable of doing this.

Because of all the "family bred" dogs I see abandoned in shelters and are placed in my lap. Every day. They are capable, sure. But they are not willing to learn and put in the effort as opposed to people who have dedicated their lives to dogs - such as yourself. Most people simply do not understand the meaning of the word "forever" - that is why I do not support indiscriminate breeding.

DPU

And why would you think that a family that want to breed their family pet is not capable of doing this.  Surely is not because of the rules for breeding established by the bigwigs of breed clubs.

Because they do not have the knowledge to make educated decisions about breeding.

You say you wish you had bred Drizzle. How do you know that one of her parents, grandparents, siblings, or other close relatives did not have a heart condition? That is part of being a responsible breeder, knowing the genetic background of your dog's relatives, and the stud dog's too.

People keep mentioning the need to test breeding dogs for genetic health issues, and you keep ignoring the issue. Do you believe that this is something that should be done before breeding dogs, or it really does not matter? Is it okay to breed dogs in breeds that are affected by HD without getting their hips x-rayed first?

dgriego

For instance let's take Hektor. I know he has the hunting drive, so I could easily test him, hunt him and prove him in the field, and I would be able to stand him out, but that would be wrong, He has no pigmentation and that is a fault. So in my opinion he would need to fit the standard very well and have the hunting drive and ability.

A "million years ago" when the hubs and I got into RR we quickly understood the first major caveat in breeding   .... Not every dog should  be a champion and Not every every Champion SHOULD be bred. For a million reasons from temperament to iffy health backgrounds. We had a spectacular male who finished early, but he was horribly dog aggressive. We were routinally approached by people asking if we would stand him to stud.  No.  While a beauty we would not take the risk

To people who perceive this as being "elitist" ,  work for 6 months with rescue , breed or shelter work.   The last rescue pup we pulled and gave transport to was a mix, beagle and rr....the jerk wanted to create a pocket sixed RR . We run into this all the time.  So instead of a devoted companion for an apartment he dumped hyper, yapping houdinis on the shelter system.

Bonita of Bwana

If having standards, being responsible, and having a goal beyond just making more 'family pets' makes me an elitist, I'm proud to be one.

I have nothing against families who want to breed their dogs provided they live up to the same standards that I require of ANYONE that I consider responsible. This means health testing, proving their dogs (in competition or in work, but to some objective, verifiable standard- not just 'well, we let him see cattle once and he chased them through the fence so we think he'd be a good herding dog' or 'he's not gun shy the one time we took him out with a cap gun, so he'd make a GREAT hunting dog' or 'she's so sweet, she'd make a GREAT therapy dog';), screening of homes, and contracts. There are some grey areas- there are people who place with individuals *I* wouldn't place a dog with, who I consider responsible, adn there are people who are significantly stricter about who they will place with than I am. That's fine. There's grey areas.  But breeding dogs SOLELY on the qualification of having more nice family pets is reprehensible and it's how we've got so many dogs in the shelters in the first place. After all, Sue's pit x bulldog is the best dog she's ever owned, and the neighbor has a really sweet lab x pit, wouldn't the puppies be cute, and both dogs are so nice and easy to train, all their family members hvae said they'd want one just like them. Right.

If thinking that backyard breeders are the biggest source of dogs in shelters today makes me an elitist, I'm perfectly happy to be called one. I would call it HAVING STANDARDS.  

I don't remember who was addressing Carla about her longcoats, but I wanted to say that where she got them from IS reputable.

The breeder doesn't breed FOR long coats, but due to the nature and genetics of her normal coated stock, she does frequently get longcoated puppies.

The long haired gene in the GSD is recessive, so both parents must carry it in order to produce long coats.  If you have two short coated parents that both carry the LC gene, you will get both stock coats AND long coats in a litter.

GSD people are starting to figure out who is a coat carrier just by looking, as one of the ways we ended up with those thick plush coats was to breed shorter coated dogs to dogs that were borderline coats/coats (before they were a disqualification in the German ring, etc etc).  There are some dogs who could go either way.  If the conformation is nice, they'll put the dog in the ring, and the judge will end up deciding whether the dog is a long coat or a super plushy GSD.

Jim v Fiemereck is a good example of a borderline coated dog

http://www.darby-dan.com/jimv.htm 

This whole argument seems ridiculous to me.

If people want to breed, they'll breed. It doesn't affect me whether they're going to do a good job of it or not. I don't like to think that there are dogs out there being overbred and poorly cared for, but their dog is their dog and they can do what they like with it. I'm not saying it's right, just that it's a fact you can't change.

Personally, I wouldn't breed soley because I don't have the time and commitment to it. I've been thinking about putting my Finnish Lapphund out to stud so someone else can do the tedious bits and I get to see what the puppies turn out like, but I think it's unlikely that I'll ever do that because I'd really need to get the dog titled and I'm unlikely to do that. I wouldn't breed from an animal that had health or temperament issues that I knew about. I would consider it my responsibility to make sure any animal I assisted into the world found a good home, and I'd take any reject I assisted into the world back, even if it was just until I could find it another home.

I did get a female rabbit and left her whole in the hope that my curiosity over whether a hare cross rabbit could exist would be sated. I won't apologise for being curious. I didn't think very hard about what I'd do with such babies as I thought it extremely unlikely to happen, but I would have kept them all if I couldn't find suitable homes for them. Similarly, I won't apologise for a strong desire to see what colours and traits would come from a deliberate breeding. If I ever bred, that would be why I'd do it. Curiosity. I don't think that's wrong, as long as the welfare of all animals existing and future was foremost.

When all is said and done, I think breeders these days are a bit too intense about who their dogs go to. My breeder had a chat with me face to face, talked to me about the breed and what they need, and answered all my questions truthfully, but when I asked for a puppy, she didn't feel a need to make me jump through hoops and answer a lot of obscure questions or outline my plan for the dog's entire life. I really like that about her. She cares, but she doesn't need me to sign a contract ensuring I treat anything she breeds exactly the way she wants it to be treated.

I just don't judge breeders beyond whether I want a pup from them or not. I want a pup from someone that treats their dog well, wants good homes for the puppies, and bothered to minimise the chances of health and temperament problems in them. All of that is about covering my own butt. I don't want a puppy that lacked in socialisation, was treated poorly by people, or might have future health problems. If people want to breed and they don't care about things like that, well I just won't get a puppy from them and warn anyone else I know to avoid it as well. That's as far as I'll go.

And I'll never foster or rehab dogs because it's not my cup of tea. Not everyone wants to, you know, and they shouldn't be made to feel guilty because they don't. I don't. I don't want rescues. I don't want pound puppies. I want something specific and wherever I find it that'll do. Rescue dogs just aren't my cause. I care, just not enough to help directly. And I don't feel any less of an animal lover for that.

I know someone that breeds rabbits and sells the babies to pet shops. She breeds because she loves it. She sends the bubs to a pet store she considers a good one. She loves her rabbits and treats them better than most people do. I can't say what she does is wrong when she does it with love and respect for the animals involved. 

corvus

This whole argument seems ridiculous to me.

If people want to breed, they'll breed. It doesn't affect me whether they're going to do a good job of it or not. I don't like to think that there are dogs out there being overbred and poorly cared for, but their dog is their dog and they can do what they like with it. I'm not saying it's right, just that it's a fact you can't change.

Personally, I wouldn't breed soley because I don't have the time and commitment to it.

And I'll never foster or rehab dogs because it's not my cup of tea. Not everyone wants to, you know, and they shouldn't be made to feel guilty because they don't. I don't. I don't want rescues. I don't want pound puppies. I want something specific and wherever I find it that'll do. Rescue dogs just aren't my cause. I care, just not enough to help directly. And I don't feel any less of an animal lover for that.

Good post, Corvus!  It is ridiculous how a few want to dictate their ways on others when they have absolutely no say-so in their matter.  And look how they go about it, intimadatte, strong arm, scare, and provide misinformation to try and force their opinion is downright criminal, like harrassment is. 

Personally I don't see why the standards for the Holy Grail dog should be the same as breeding the family pet.  I think those Holy Grail people would make better headway if their approach show a more relevance to the family pet owner.

Its ok that you don't want to foster or rehab dogs, that is perfectly fine with me.  But then don't exploit the situation of these dogs just to impose your beliefs on others.  That is shameful in my opinion especially if you are not involved in rescue.

Everyday I see so many wonderful mixbreed dogs that obviously did not follow the standards others are trying to dictate.  They are proof that the relevance of the standards may be appropiate for the Holy Grail dog, but maybe not for the family pet.

Xeph

GSD people are starting to figure out who is a coat carrier just by looking, as one of the ways we ended up with those thick plush coats was to breed shorter coated dogs to dogs that were borderline coats/coats (before they were a disqualification in the German ring, etc etc).

Shouldn't they be focusing on the hip issue of GSD rather than the coat.  Afterall you can easily cut the coat to the bigwigs standards.  How ridiculous are these bigwigs standards.....totally irrelevant to the family pet.  No wonder the bigwigs remain anonymous.