The Elitist Attitude.

DPU

If I may be so bold, why don't you personally list the breed improvements or the eliminations of health issues since you have been involved in breeding your entire life.

Well, talking in Mini's specifically.....eliminating eye disorders. Building an overall better dog by breeding for a strong, healthy, intact tail and breed-appropriate intact ears. That in itself, coming from a docked breed, is as good a goal as any, IMO. Breeding for overall stability. Breeding for an adaptable, friendly, confident animal, who will do well whether it is in an apartment with a senior or in a family with children, or an active young couple who hike in the mountains. Breeding for genetic fitness - my family's litters have always been large, healthy litters. SO many breeders I know of this breed have litters of 1, or 2, or 3 puppies. Time after time after time. Why is that? In a Mini Schnauzer, it should not be that small. It is, in fact, due mostly in part to the breeding practices, the amount of linebreeding and inbreeding involved. Their smallest litter ever has been four, and their largest litter was 11. Our vet, and others, have said time and time again that they are endlessly surprised at the health and quality of our puppies. And they don't mean *show quality*, as they don't know the standard like we do. But they mean confident, sturdy, well-built, strong, healthy animals. Does it always happen like that? Of course not. Shimmer's personality is not as confident as we would have liked, so even when you know what you are doing, and breed animals in which you know generations of lineage, things don't always go as planned. When breeding *whatever dog* to *whatever other dog*, you do NOT know the genetic lineage. Just because your dog looks healthy, does not mean that it will not produce a litter full of sick puppies. After all, you do not see recessive traits.

DPU

Shouldn't they be focusing on the hip issue of GSD rather than the coat.  Afterall you can easily cut the coat to the bigwigs standards.  How ridiculous are these bigwigs standards.....totally irrelevant to the family pet.  No wonder the bigwigs remain anonymous. 

Correct me if I'm wrong (4IC), but perhaps might this not be the reason why she has a longcoated GSD? Because they DO care more about health than the coat?

But yeah, there's no use arguing. I'll sleep in my elitist bed tonight with my bigwig dogs, thinking of the bigwig shows that are coming up next month, and dream of those bigwig puppies that I just came back from visiting. And you know what? I'll be smiling.

Kim_MacMillan

DPU

If I may be so bold, why don't you personally list the breed improvements or the eliminations of health issues since you have been involved in breeding your entire life.

Well, talking in Mini's specifically.....eliminating eye disorders.

Wow, you personally got rid of all eye disorder for the breed.  Is there something like the Nobel Prize issue by the bigwigs to recognize this?  I must tell you this really overshadows your other claimed accomplishments because the others just seems you are catching up to the standards or fixing common behavior problems.  But really, congrats on effectively dealing with the eye disorders.

DPU

Xeph

GSD people are starting to figure out who is a coat carrier just by looking, as one of the ways we ended up with those thick plush coats was to breed shorter coated dogs to dogs that were borderline coats/coats (before they were a disqualification in the German ring, etc etc).

Shouldn't they be focusing on the hip issue of GSD rather than the coat.  Afterall you can easily cut the coat to the bigwigs standards.  How ridiculous are these bigwigs standards.....totally irrelevant to the family pet.  No wonder the bigwigs remain anonymous. 

Yeah, hips ARE and HAVE been focused on.  Good lines are all OFAed (actually, there's a different test in German, but same thing) and don't have hip dysplasia (however it can still develop, HD is not just genetic).  It's the BYB GSDs that are ridden with hip dysplasia.  I know of one breeder who has a stunning dog, but one hip tested slightly dysplastic so that dog was kept (by them) as a pet, rather that being worked too hard, bred, or sold. 

Reputable breeders end up with coated dogs all the time.  They are not culled, they are sold just like the others.  There's a lot of people that love coated dogs and ONLY want coated dogs, so they have their own niche.  A dog that has produced coats will still be bred, while one with HD will most certainly NOT.  Kenya's breeder had a coated puppy recently.  He is in training to be a seeing eye service dog. 

Liesje

DPU

Xeph

GSD people are starting to figure out who is a coat carrier just by looking, as one of the ways we ended up with those thick plush coats was to breed shorter coated dogs to dogs that were borderline coats/coats (before they were a disqualification in the German ring, etc etc).

Shouldn't they be focusing on the hip issue of GSD rather than the coat.  Afterall you can easily cut the coat to the bigwigs standards.  How ridiculous are these bigwigs standards.....totally irrelevant to the family pet.  No wonder the bigwigs remain anonymous. 

 

Yeah, hips ARE and HAVE been focused on.  Good lines are all OFAed (actually, there's a different test in German, but same thing) and don't have hip dysplasia (however it can still develop, HD is not just genetic).  It's the BYB GSDs that are ridden with hip dysplasia.  I know of one breeder who has a stunning dog, but one hip tested slightly dysplastic so that dog was kept (by them) as a pet, rather that being worked too hard, bred, or sold. 

Reputable breeders end up with coated dogs all the time.  They are not culled, they are sold just like the others.  There's a lot of people that love coated dogs and ONLY want coated dogs, so they have their own niche.  A dog that has produced coats will still be bred, while one with HD will most certainly NOT.  Kenya's breeder had a coated puppy recently.  He is in training to be a seeing eye service dog. 

*EDITED: Rude and personal*

I don't know about your statement that BYB are ridden with dysplasia.  That may be true and noticeable only because of the volume of them out there.  Any data on HD within the different breeder types?  That would help prove your point. 

DPU

Kim_MacMillan

DPU

If I may be so bold, why don't you personally list the breed improvements or the eliminations of health issues since you have been involved in breeding your entire life.

Well, talking in Mini's specifically.....eliminating eye disorders.

Wow, you personally got rid of all eye disorder for the breed.  Is there something like the Nobel Prize issue by the bigwigs to recognize this?  I must tell you this really overshadows your other claimed accomplishments because the others just seems you are catching up to the standards or fixing common behavior problems.  But really, congrats on effectively dealing with the eye disorders.

DPU

*Previously deleted content*

I don't know about your statement that BYB are ridden with dysplasia.  That may be true and noticeable only because of the volume of them out there.  Any data on HD within the different breeder types?  That would help prove your point. 

Excuse me?  Kenya's hips tested fine, as did her elbows, eyes, and heart, but she's spayed so it's a moot point. :)  But go ahead and personally insult my dog if that's how you like to get your "points" across... Besides, I'm not defending the breeder or even providing her as an example of a responsible breeder, as far as I define it, so I don't see why it needs to be brought up.  I've never given her any money for anything (well, I bought a bag of food from her, at cost) and I never pay any breeder for anything (supplies, training, dogs...) until I am 100% convinced they are legit.

I don't need to prove a point, you were the one that brought up HD in GSDs.  This thread is about responsible breeding, not the history of hip dysplasia in German Shepherd dogs.  Numbers do not matter to me, only what the specific breeder does and has done in the past with regard to hip dysplasia.  If they are not testing for it and not retiring dogs that are even ever so slightly dysplastic, then I find them very irresponsible.  Pets are all sold on spay/neuter contracts, so there's no risk of dogs developing HD (non genetic) and being bred.

I apologize for being off topic, but I wanted to answer chelsea's particular question. (And Jaia and B'asia both have wonderful hips)

chelsea_b

Carla, I'm actually asking and not looking to offend, but I can't seem to word this in a way that's totally neutral, so please believe me that I am honestly asking and not trying to offend anyone.. I know pretty much zilch about GSDs, but isn't a long coat against breed standards and impractical for working? So how can someone be a reputable breeder of long-coat GSDs?

Chelsea, I appreciate you asking that so carefully.  

Jaia and B'asia come from top German show lines. Their parents and their entire pedigree have stock (short) coats and many have titles out the butt. My breeder does not breed coated dogs. In fact, I had to sign a contract saying I would not breed my dogs and would have them fixed by a certain time.

The gene for the long coat is recessive (I believe that's the term) and it shows up now and then in MOST lines. When my litter was born, there was a long coat in there and I requested him. Later, when my breeder had another coat, she contacted me to see if I was interested in the pup. And I was.

Both of my dogs have undercoats. So they could work just fine, they just have a little extra hair. (Sometimes I WISH they didn't have an undercoat! LOL ) 

Pedigrees: 

Father     Jaia's Mother     B'asia's Mother    Jaia   B'asia

GSD Coats

The longcoat gene has been in the breed since the breed's beginning. Such dogs as 1925 Sieger Klodo v Boxberg, Odin v Stolzenfels, and Curt v Herzog Hedan carried coat, just to name a few well known historical dogs. Most of the top dogs of the present day do carry the gene for longcoat, as did most of the top dogs throughout the breed's history. Discrimination against the long coats in breeding has been practiced for decades, but has failed to eliminate the gene or even to reduce the frequency with which it occurs or the numbers of influential dogs that carry the gene.

So, the only thing "wrong"  with a long coat is that they cannot show in the US. Many countries do not consider the coat a fault and they show just like any other dog with long and short coats. In fact, Jaia's conformation is really quite wonderful. His only fault is his coat. And that's just according to US standards.

I'm sure others here more knowledgeable on the subject could answer this more completely, but I wanted to tell you what I know. (Edit: Thank you Xeph).

Liesje, Don't sweat the small stuff.

Chelsea, a long coat is a fault or a disqualification, but not any dog is perfect.  You can show coated dogs in UKC, coated dogs are AKC registered, they can compete in AKC events and Schutzhund (German Shepherd sport).  It's only a problem in the AKC show ring.  The AKC show ring is not the end-all or be-all of German Shepherd dogs, hardly!!  

Here is a coated GSD (maybe plush coated) being shown at a large show I went to last summer, and also a black sable Czech GSD.  Both of these dogs do not stand a change in the AKC ring.

Coat is a VERY important factor for GSD b/c they are a tough, working breed.  A true long coat lacks an undercoat and that has some consequences for a dog built to work in tough conditions.
 

 Corvus: It may not affect you in Australia, I don't know the homeless pet stats there, but it definitely affects us here in the states.  In tax dollars that are required to run the shelters where BYBs dump their excess puppies that aren't sold and in the legislation that crops up that attempts to address the overpopulation problem.  For those of us who love dogs, don't like to see them waste away and be euthanized in shelters, anything that contributes to the overpopulation problem is an issue for us and that includes reckless, ill-advised breeding of family pets.

DPU- where the heck are you getting "anonymous bigwigs"???  The breed clubs and registries are known and have established standards, they're certainly not anonymous.  And while there is a huge amount of debate and disagreement about those standards and whether they help or hurt the breeds, at least there is debate and there are people engaged in study and research!  They are not advocating a complete LACK of standards just for the sake of not being judgmental or labeled an elitist.  You seem to be advocating an attitude of "if they want to do it, no one should say otherwise".  With that type of attitude, I think you'll continue to have lots of foster work to keep you busy.

wtsthefrequency - you rock.   

BCMixs

DPU- where the heck are you getting "anonymous bigwigs"???  The breed clubs and registries are known and have established standards, they're certainly not anonymous.  And while there is a huge amount of debate and disagreement about those standards and whether they help or hurt the breeds, at least there is debate and there are people engaged in study and research!  They are not advocating a complete LACK of standards just for the sake of not being judgmental or labeled an elitist.  You seem to be advocating an attitude of "if they want to do it, no one should say otherwise".  With that type of attitude, I think you'll continue to have lots of foster work to keep you busy.

Exactly.  Not to mention you can JOIN the breed clubs and parent clubs if you want to have your say and get things changed.  There's a petition going around right now about GSDs, and I'm really tempted to join the club in question just so I can sign and do my part.  If I sit back and do nothing, I have no right to complain or criticize if I'm not willing to get involved in the decision making process.  Actually, on Friday I'm going to a meeting b/c some local (well, some of us are driving hours) folks are starting our own club based on our training philosophies and what we expect from the breed.  If you talk the talk... 

 Please do join! Maybe you can get Andrew Hunte removed!  But that's a thread of another color.....

DPU

Show me one breeder, any breeder that has taken back ALL the puppies they produced.  This one should be easier, show me a breeder who makes available a complete history of all their dogs that they bred, for example how long lived, cause of death, life time illnesses, behavior and temperment problems.

I could show you a dozen, just in my breed.  Probably 5-10 more in other sighthound breeds.  You obviously do not know the dog fancy at all.  You do know dog rescue, but sadly, you don't have even the slightest clue with regards to the fancy. 

Xerxes

You obviously do not know the dog fancy at all.  You do know dog rescue, but sadly, you don't have even the slightest clue with regards to the fancy. 

Thats right so don't try and dictate your Holy Grail dog ways on me.  Not sad at all, I couldn't care less about chasing the Holy Grail dog.  I know family pets.  Just so you know, that kind of standard is maintained by my rescue organization, meticulous records on the dogs that come into the program.  A lot of dog owners do know and understand responsibility.   How you achieve being responsible may be different but in the end the dog is well taken care of.

Liesje

But go ahead and personally insult my dog if that's how you like to get your "points" across... Besides, I'm not defending the breeder or even providing her as an example of a responsible breeder,

Oh, I thought you were rep'ing Kenya's breeder as an excellent example, sorry.  It was not intended but maybe now you can understand how the members feel when they are pounced on for thinking about breeding a family pet.  With their inflamed advised, they can't help but insult the dog.  They forget there is an innocent person at the other end of their comments.

Xerxes

DPU

Show me one breeder, any breeder that has taken back ALL the puppies they produced.  This one should be easier, show me a breeder who makes available a complete history of all their dogs that they bred, for example how long lived, cause of death, life time illnesses, behavior and temperment problems.

 

I could show you a dozen, just in my breed.  Probably 5-10 more in other sighthound breeds.  You obviously do not know the dog fancy at all.  You do know dog rescue, but sadly, you don't have even the slightest clue with regards to the fancy.