The Elitist Attitude.

snownose

Just to point out, Tanner's breeder had a convo with my vet, met one of my dogs and then was interested in seeing pictures of where her would be raised and kept.

Maybe I'm not familiar with Tanner.. but, this sounds like a breeder who cares about their puppy, no?

And I disagree.  I know great, reputable breeders who would take ANY of their puppies back ANY time for ANY reason.
 

Sera_J

I challenge you, DPU to prove to us that you've had to rescue a reputably bred dog (by my standards, which is listed above.) .... I'm sure you find most of the dogs that find their way to you are unwanted by someone, yes?  Just to point out all reputably bred dogs are wanted.  If not by their current owner, then by their breeder. 

I think this is a popular misconception.  Even though many "reputable breeders" would *want* and *try* to take back their dogs and be responsible for them, the onus of that is on the buyers.  When we were faced with a transfer to Australia, we could have easily dumped Rush at a shelter and given them no information about his origins.  The breeder would never have known.  A breeder can't force a buyer to stay in touch and keep them updated on every stage and event in the dog's life.

Lying at my feet is a dog who was dumped at a shelter along with his registration papers and vet records!  The breeder's information was right there, but they were never contacted about giving Indie back to them. (I can't say whether they're "reputable" or not, but they weren't contacted according to them.)  A breeder might try to stay in touch with every buyer and may even have a contract which requires a return, but ultimately the responsibility for that dog falls to the buyer and while the dog may be wanted at the time of purchase, things change and even the most responsibly bred dog can end up in a shelter. 

Tanner is my youngest GSD.......last year when I had six dogs 4 were rescues, 2 were purchased.......yes, the breeder does care, and we even stayed in touch months after the purchase.....the day I picked up Tanner was a long day......I must have been there for hours chatting, drinking coffee and looking at one photo album after another, she really cares about her dogs.......but, I doubt that every breeder is like this......

A great many people on my golden retriever forums are involved with recues and there are many great, well bred dogs turned in for various reasons--sometimes the dogs turn ut to to need more exercise than owners are wiling to provide, or have time for so they turn the dog over to the nearest golden retriever resuce.   Sometimes family member has allergies, all kinds of things. Somes times the elderly owner ends up in nursing home and no family member wants the dog.  A lot of well bred, AKcC dogs  of all breeds end up in shelters.  It is really a sad situation.

BCMixs

I think this is a popular misconception.  Even though many "reputable breeders" would *want* and *try* to take back their dogs and be responsible for them, the onus of that is on the buyers. 

True... but, mine is contractual, signed by all parties.  I could be sued if they found out I sold him or otherwise.  There is also a responsiblity of the breeder to screen puppy buyers and pick those that will be responsible. Yes, mistakes are made, not everyone is honest and truthful.  And most show/reputable breeders do limited registration/co-ownership, which I think is a really good idea. I know one breeder who co-owns ALL of her puppies... tell me that's not a bunch of responsibility right there!

I will agree that most breeders aren't reputable by my standard.  But, to lump the really good ones in with everyone else is not fair and that's what I am seeing happening here.  It frustrates me greatly because these people work hard, spare no expense and do everything in their power to make great, not good, not mediocre, not dogs with just "great temperaments" or "good hips" but the entire package.  I'm speaking of those breeders and defending them, because they are the ones that are safe guarding dogs we love so that 10 years from now, God willing we will still have healthy, beautiful, wonderful dogs to love.  Mutts are fantastic, I agree I own one. But the health problems that go with them are prolific, just as they are with poorly bred purebreds. Someone has to care and they are there... working diligently to save the breeds they love.
 

Sera_J

The breeder I got Logan from does this very thing.  I asked about the history of bloat, cancer and other things in her dogs, as well as an temperament problems, not only was upfront and honest about this, she knew dates, how much money was spent, etc.  In the one case of bloat they had, the dog survived, they offered a puppy from their next litter (and have never used a male from the line since nor will they again).  They've taken back several puppies from people who could no longer keep the dog, or had health issues or even death.  In my contract I'm obligated to make arrangements to get him back to them should I no longer be able to keep him for any reason. 

I'm not going to give you a name as I don't feel it's appropriate to expose someone to something they didn't ask to be exposed to (ie. being called "elitist", btw, as a mod I should warn you. Be careful how your word this or you will be inked.)

I consider any breeder who doesn't take the dogs they've made back irresponsible and are breeding for other purpose than the betterment of the breed.  Health, temperament, sound conformation ... and being responsible for the lifetime of the dog is what i call a "reputable breeder."

I challenge you, DPU to prove to us that you've had to rescue a reputably bred dog (by my standards, which is listed above.) .... I'm sure you find most of the dogs that find their way to you are unwanted by someone, yes?  Just to point out all reputably bred dogs are wanted.  If not by their current owner, then by their breeder. 

Excellent example of responsibility.  A responsibility that anyone can commit to and honor, even someone who wants to breed their precious house pet.

I can not accept your challenge because the dogs I get are dumped and I never get an accurate history, never.  Plus the majorities are mixes but every now and then I get what looks like a "purebred".  Its possible the dogs are a reputably bred dog but I am sure I would get no one to admit it.

This is not addressed to Sera_J, but who are these bigwigs that want absolute control of dog creation, what the dog looks like, how they behave, dictating the priorities of breed improvements, basically defining the next generation of the dog. 

DPU

but who are these bigwigs that want absolute control of dog creation, what the dog looks like, how they behave, dictating the priorities of breed improvements, basically defining the next generation of the dog. 

I wish you would find them, so I could give them a piece of my mind when it comes to messing with the GSD breed.....

Sera_J

True... but, mine is contractual, signed by all parties.  I could be sued if they found out I sold him or otherwise.  There is also a responsiblity of the breeder to screen puppy buyers and pick those that will be responsible. Yes, mistakes are made, not everyone is honest and truthful.  And most show/reputable breeders do limited registration/co-ownership, which I think is a really good idea. I know one breeder who co-owns ALL of her puppies... tell me that's not a bunch of responsibility right there!

I will agree that most breeders aren't reputable by my standard.  But, to lump the really good ones in with everyone else is not fair and that's what I am seeing happening here.  It frustrates me greatly because these people work hard, spare no expense and do everything in their power to make great, not good, not mediocre, not dogs with just "great temperaments" or "good hips" but the entire package.  I'm speaking of those breeders and defending them, because they are the ones that are safe guarding dogs we love so that 10 years from now, God willing we will still have healthy, beautiful, wonderful dogs to love.  Mutts are fantastic, I agree I own one. But the health problems that go with them are prolific, just as they are with poorly bred purebreds. Someone has to care and they are there... working diligently to save the breeds they love.
 

I think the standard that my rescue organization and myself follow may be a little higher.  I think we accept more of a responsibility because of the fact that we have no history and we don't have a crystal ball to see into the future.  A dog that is placed from my rescue organization is always welcomed back and if I was the foster, the dog is welcomed back into my home.  It is not that hard for me to see an average dog owner make and honor a smilar commitment with their residence dog's litter.

DPU

This is not addressed to Sera_J, but who are these bigwigs that want absolute control of dog creation, what the dog looks like, how they behave, dictating the priorities of breed improvements, basically defining the next generation of the dog. 

They are different breed clubs and different breeders may choose to join or not join.  They are also people who have set opinions about what should and should not happen in their breed.  They all have opinions, just like you.  But, unlike you (ETA: the proverbial "you", meaning casual breeders of family pets), they join together, create an organization and make rules about that organization.  That gives them the power to issue or not issue registration papers for a particular dog and their organizational policies tend to stand for something.  It may be something you either agree with or not, but that's who they are.  What they do offer sometimes is a safeguard that the breeders who carry their papers comply with the breeding practices they endorse.  In that way, a potential buyer can look to that organization and evaluate whether it is or is not something they want to endorse.  A casually bred family pet does not carry any of those safeguards or standards and as such, is pretty much a crap shoot and IMHO not much better than a puppy you could get from the pound.  The difference is that the puppy at the pound is a life in current need of saving, the casually bred family pet POTENTIAL litter is not on the ground yet and can be avoided if the owner will just change their mind.

OK, some missed my little sentence that I know not every breeder is going to take their dog back. And not every breeder is in it for betterment. My stance, is that unless your making an improvement or trying to take something seriously wrong out of a breed, there is no reason to breed, period. I don't care who you are. I don't care what breed you have.

Why?

This is the number of dogs available today in my area on petfinder:

171229 dogs available on Petfinder.com

There are:

13057 German Shepherds/mixed

975 Great Danes/mixed

4593 Border Collies/mixed

4699 Hounds/mixed

A STAGGERING 18277 Labrador's/mixed

6544 Terriers group

some of the less popular breeds have low numbers. but numbers none the less.

I think every dog and dog owner on this board is fortunate to have found each other, no matter what the origin. Be it breeder, pound, foster or off the street corner. We have seen the trials and tears some people go through with breedings, lost puppies, lost mothers, health issue's and the like.

I will not accept your challenge, it serves only you, I refuse to make your point for you, make it for yourself. You labeled me an Elitist, fine. I am an elitist. Now prove to me why I'm wrong in my thinking, why my view is the wrong one, show me the numbers and what ever you can that prove everyone should breed their dog.

Also it looks to me you just created another excuse not to help the shelter dog and rescue goods. Thats ok, that your choice, no one is making you help the shelter dog.

 
What on earth...."another excuse" not to help shelter dogs? What are these other excuses? Every post seems to either be calling peoplel elitist or telling them they are horrible because they supposedly don't want to help shelter/rescue dogs, and how somehow that is tied to pushing for limited and responsible breeding....that makes no sense whatsoever.

If there is any elitism going on here, it is you on your high horse telling everyone else that they can never measure up to you because you are the best rescuer ever..... " I feel I am contributing in a big way to help that situation." how does it feel hanging there on that cross?

 I do agree that some breeds have been damaged by people acting as "elitists" and breeding for "form over function" ( I have a "function" breed myself that has never, ever been bred for color or ear shape or anything like that....hunting ability supercedes ALL) - but if bigwigs breeding for only form to conform to an arbitrary breed standard (i.e. form over function, you mentioned pretty white Danes with bad hearts), how does it make a family who breeds their own dog for "form/sentimental value over function" any better?

 
That mini poodle might have a congenital mitral valve defect, but it is so cute (insert: proper hair coat, proper legs, etc) that they are breeding it anyway....how is that fine and dandy?

Truley

My stance, is that unless your making an improvement or trying to take something seriously wrong out of a breed, there is no reason to breed, period. I don't care who you are. I don't care what breed you have.

That is a pretty powerful stance.  Maybe we all need a refresher course on what improvements were made last year and what seriously wrong thing was taken out of any breed.  Anyone know of any?

I am still not seeing the difference of why a residence dog should not be bred while those can that follow the directive of bigwigs in a loose willy nilly organization structure called breed clubs that define the standards.  It all comes down to the dog that is in front of you and you knowing the dog plus the responsibility and committment to honor the lifelong care of the litter.  Truley is adamant that this does not happen.  Truley places conditions on when a "reputable" breeder can breed.  It seems Truley want all the shelters cleared out before a new dog is born.  Everyone has a different want and purpose to breed and no one, except law, can dictate what they are going to do.  Find another way to place the dogs needing homes on Petfinders.  I feel I am contributing in a big way to help that situation.

You need to prove your point first. You brought it up and have expounded on it, even throwing in a few things that were never there to begin with.

You stated I was wrong, so go ahead prove me wrong.

Truley

You stated I was wrong, so go ahead prove me wrong.

You may be out on the edge all by your lonesome.  Lets see what others say.

whtsthfrequency

What on earth...."another excuse" not to help shelter dogs? What are these other excuses?

I believe that with more volunteers helping to place the dogs in shelters, the shelter population will decrease significantly.  I believe that most shelter dogs, not all, are adoptable and can be placed.  These dogs makes excellent house pets.  I believe with 300+ million people in the US, there is room for all the dogs that exist and will be produced.  It irks me when I hear people say things like I can't volunteer because I get too emotional and attached to the dog.  That is fine but why advertise so others can think that way, especially when it is so easy to overcome these excuses.