Training a pefect recall with an e-collar

 An emergency recall can be a word or a whistle or whatever you like.  Or a whistle can be an everyday cue.  There's no law dictating it... it's all just cues and behaviours.

Chuffy

 An emergency recall can be a word or a whistle or whatever you like.  Or a whistle can be an everyday cue.  There's no law dictating it... it's all just cues and behaviours.

You can hack it all to pieces if you like, I didn't state that there is a law dictating it, that is why I used words such as "Can". In my experience it is beneficial to use something other than the usual for an emergency recall, if that means salto mortale through the air that's fine also.

   I'm not kicking anything.  Based on the context of what was posted before I thought you were saying that a whistle was more effective and better for emergency recall.  I just got confused at what you were driving at.

Whistle, collar, long line.... any and all of them are only as effective as the person at the other end.  Amen.

Chuffy

   I'm not kicking anything.  Based on the context of what was posted before I thought you were saying that a whistle was more effective and better for emergency recall.  I just got confused at what you were driving at.

Whistle, collar, long line.... any and all of them are only as effective as the person at the other end.  Amen.

No biggie, just a misunderstanding, that's all.

Liesje is right, I also think there is warning tone.  So many trainers tone, command and stim if necessary.  I never used one but I believe they can be  very effective.  I see how the electric fence works so beautifully in my own world.

I taught River his recal the good ole hard way, patience and time and practice.  At this point he will recall to me if point my head like, common boy!  It dosen't matter if I whistle, call him, point, snap my finger.  However, with my DH is not that good, hes good but not that good.

 One's DH should ALWAYS have a perfect recall.  How else do you manage when you have something heavy that needs lifting?!!

Chuffy

 One's DH should ALWAYS have a perfect recall.  How else do you manage when you have something heavy that needs lifting?!!

Liesje

He really needs to start over with a new command and a method of training that involves impeccable timing and absolute consistency.

I totally agree.  If a dog learns that "come" is optional, it really is best to change the word.  But, doing that might be enough, provided you do the training correctly and consistently, and not give too much freedom too soon off the lead.  Do that, and you might never feel the need to resort to e-collars, which I don't recommend even though I teach lots of recall classes.  In fact, changing the word was what I did when I trained the hound.  His recall word is NOT "come". 

With Sioux, her cue got poisoned because my fiance and his kids were always calling her but not requiring that she come.  So, I trained a new word for her as well (Leslie Nelson calls this the really reliable word).  When I call Sioux, I add "now", so her recall word has become "Sioux, come - now".  She never fails to respond to that, and the boys wonder how I get her every time when they can't (no she is never off lead outside with them, we're talking in the dog pen, which is fairly large).

Sequoyah has a totally different word than the other two - a perversion of her nickname - "Kabean"   That dog has never failed to come - ever.

The important thing in each case was not the word itself, but the fact that we started the training from scratch with a word that was not poisoned by any previous association.

A new cue is all well and good, but it still won't help if the dog takes off after prey the first time they encounter them off lead and thus learn yet another word is not compulsory.  I teach +R methods and never even mention aversives to my students in basic classes, but I have yet to find a good solution to my issue using all the +R in the world - my rewards are just not as valuable to my dogs as the chase. 

For Maggie, being on lead's not an issue as we've been doing that for years now (in fact her being off lead this weekend was the first time she'd been off lead in a non-secured area in over 3 YEARS because I didn't trust her yet).  I finally trusted her to focus on me and she *still* went off after a deer, despite "here", despite her emergency whistle, despite my "voice of doom". For pete's sake, if 3 years of recall work and no opportunities to ignore the cue don't get me a reliable recall, what will?!

For Ziva being off lead is essential for her SAR work.  Now I asked my SAR trainer about the crittering and he said to work her leave it (which we are doing) so she doesn't "track" the deer to begin with, but other than that "dogs will be dogs" and he's of the mindset that it's just something you accept.  If the dog's truly in work mode they shouldn't be interested in the chase unless something crazy happens (deer runs right in front of them basically), so the only risk would be when the dog is on a break or off scent and you just realize that that is a risk.  I'm not sure I'm real comfortable with that.  Hence considering the ecollar issue - not something i want to do, but not sure if i have much choice...

If all avenues have failed, as I previously mentioned and the dogs' safety is at risk, I will recommend an e-collar. Not an easy decision to make, but for the safety of all dogs it is necessary. The e-collars can be set to a lower setting, nothing severely painful to a dog versus getting hit by a car or even worse.

Yeah, but WHY is an e-collar more effective than rewards? That's what I don't get. It seems to me that the method is pretty much the same and takes the same amount of time, but one just uses R+ and one uses R-.  

corvus

Yeah, but WHY is an e-collar more effective than rewards? That's what I don't get. It seems to me that the method is pretty much the same and takes the same amount of time, but one just uses R+ and one uses R-.  

Um, yeah.  That's what I have been trying to say.

If the dog doesn't want leave bunnies alone even for dripping juicy steak, why would he leave them and come back just because something is buzzing at his neck a little bit?

That said, maybe it's hard to stay focused on the bunnies and give chase when you have a physical tap on the shoulder, right there with you, as opposed to a half forgotten promise of steak 100 yards away...

Chuffy

corvus

Yeah, but WHY is an e-collar more effective than rewards? That's what I don't get. It seems to me that the method is pretty much the same and takes the same amount of time, but one just uses R+ and one uses R-.  

 

Um, yeah.  That's what I have been trying to say.

If the dog doesn't want leave bunnies alone even for dripping juicy steak, why would he leave them and come back just because something is buzzing at his neck a little bit?

That said, maybe it's hard to stay focused on the bunnies and give chase when you have a physical tap on the shoulder, right there with you, as opposed to a half forgotten promise of steak 100 yards away...

The last part of your statement gives a peak at how a low set e-collar works, right there with the dog tapping at his neck.

I mentioned the e-collar only for a last ditch effort if everything else has failed, so you, the trainer be the judge if you have reached that point.

Ayakia

I mentioned the e-collar only for a last ditch effort if everything else has failed, so you, the trainer be the judge if you have reached that point.

I don't know... might be useful for "final proofing" stage, not just on "all other avenues explored" dogs.

Not trying to be argumentative, but your post makes no sense to me.

Final proofing stage? Just wanting to get a clarification on what you wanted to get across.

I simply stated that I suggest if "All avenues have failed" to use an e-collar to keep an animal save, once again if everything else has failed, just to keep the animal from getting hurt, stolen or even killed.