Training a pefect recall with an e-collar

 A whistle is nothing but another cue.  It's not inherently more or less effective in the long run than a verbal cue.

Ayakia

There are dogs that get it right away, such as German Shepherds and other breeds, but there are breeds that will give you a run for your money. In that case a good whistle recall can be trained and if nothing has worked and it comes to a life or death situation I would use an aversive. That being said, I firmly believe that many people lose interest, are just too lazy or move on to a new dog, some might not even know how.

Among the breeds that "give you a run for your money" are the hounds.  So, when I was training mine, he didn't even get off the long line for the first 18 months of training.  Extreme? Sure, but do I now have a hound with a recall?  Yup. 

Chuffy

 A whistle is nothing but another cue.  It's not inherently more or less effective in the long run than a verbal cue.

Sure, but a whistle is a sharp and different sound from a voice that the dog hears all the time. More effective in my opinion.

spiritdogs

Ayakia

There are dogs that get it right away, such as German Shepherds and other breeds, but there are breeds that will give you a run for your money. In that case a good whistle recall can be trained and if nothing has worked and it comes to a life or death situation I would use an aversive. That being said, I firmly believe that many people lose interest, are just too lazy or move on to a new dog, some might not even know how.

 

Among the breeds that "give you a run for your money" are the hounds.  So, when I was training mine, he didn't even get off the long line for the first 18 months of training.  Extreme? Sure, but do I now have a hound with a recall?  Yup. 

No, not crazy. Whatever works, and this worked for you.

I didn't know how either.  But I kept reading about a perfect recall, I asked a lot of questions, did a lot of reading, and jumped into the ice cold water with both feet and we learned together.

Having german shepherds doesn't mean that training, when you aren't sure what you are doing, is a snap.Or even if you do.  I've seen real trainers have to work hard with gsds.  These dogs were bred to be able to make decisions without human intervention because they often worked alone and they were the guardians of the flock and HAD to make those decisions to keep the flock safe.  Yes, they are incredibly intelligent animals, but that doesn't automatically mean that they will fall in with what the human says without a struggle and a lot of hard work.

I agree that hounds are far more nose oriented than gsds,  But, as Anne said, you work differently with them to achieve the same result.

glenmar

With the younger dogs, I started this long line training as pups.  With the older dogs, we learned as we went.  Yet every single one of them has what I consider to be a perfect recall.

But is it b/c of training, or does it have more to do with breed, their attachment to you, their level of drive, how easy they are to motivate, etc? So many people describe how they train a recall and how the dog caught on and make it sound so easy....is that the training or the dog's predisposition to being trained?  I train recalls the same way and have two completely different results between two dogs.  Nikon is 4 months old and is as reliable as a 4 month old can be, he has always been off leash at home and we don't have a fence.  I let him out to potty by himself and he comes right back, or if he gets distracted I simply call him back in.  We built his recall doing all the "positive" things everyone else does - marking and rewarding at first for a head turn, turning and running to make it a chase game, doing recall games back and forth between two people....and yet at 4 months he's 100 times more reliable than his adult "brother" who's been through much more training.

I see a recall like any other trick/skill/command - for some dogs it's just easy and comes naturally, for others it will never happen.  Some dogs will never "get" contacts in agility, most dogs could never perfect the skills needed for SchH titles....it's all just a mixed bag of tricks and any one dog can probably learn a majority of them but no dog is going to be 100% perfect at everything.  Coke is difficult to train and motivate because he is basically without drive.  I think that's an important thing to consider.  My GSDs have drive to work.  Even stuff like recalls or training the dog to down in a crate and wait while the door is open becomes a game that builds drive.  Coke is somewhat food motivated, in that he will free heel with a hand target that has food or smells like food but beyond that, this dog has no drive to train and work.  He's done enough training and classes to be very well socialized and have the basic manners he needs for practical situations (going in the kennel, waiting at the door, not jumping on people, sit-stays and down-stays, loose leash walking...) but other than that he really is not interested in training or work.  I can't force him to enjoy something he just doesn't enjoy.  The recall is the same way.  He just doesn't get it, and he's happy enough staying in our yard or running off lead at the dog park, to me it's just not worth the hassle any more.  It's not worth the risk experimenting with exactly how far I can trust him or exactly what he will and won't come back to get.  I don't consider him a failure or a bad dog anymore than I'd look at anyone's dog here who can't run an agility course or do a SchH obedience routine a failure of a dog.  There are some things Coke is much better at than my GSDs, and sometimes I kid that I'd trade their recalls if they could pick up Coke's skills!

At any rate, a few trainers have recommended we try the e-collar.  I think their main reasoning is that Coke has been in several homes that all had different ideas about how to care for and train a dog (some neglecting him and letting him do whatever, some trying to be nice and letting him off lead immediately and him running off...).  He really needs to start over with a new command and a method of training that involves impeccable timing and absolute consistency.  Sure, the e-collar is aversive in that it uses negative punishment, but for a dog that already is lacking in drive and motivation and is pretty confused based on previous experiences, the timing and consistency are a big selling point.  He needs those things when we train any type of command.  Right now though Coke is perfectly happy being "managed".  There really aren't any situations where he needs to be off-lead so at this point there's not enough need for me to spend $300 on another piece of equipment.

Sure, I can understand not wanting to spend that kind of money, but ask yourself this, has your dog ever escaped his "Managed Situation", and did you have to look for him ? If so, how long was he gone? Terrible things can happen in a short period of time.

I believe that breed disposition has a lot to do with how easy it is to train recall.

Honestly, NO, none of my six have ever escaped.  But then, off lead is something we do in SAFE places, like the woods, not in the middle of a town.  However, when I'm doing the MS Walk, there have been times when Tyler has been off lead simply because we got mobbed and I couldn't hang on to his lead without tripping a dozen or so people.  And not because of OUR miscues, but because sometimes you get a mob mentality at those things.  And lead or not, Tyler doesn't go beyond the length of the lead because that's how he's been trained. 

My dogs do not exit the house, or a vehicle without being given the ok.  And this even when we HAVE a nicely fenced yard outside the door.  A quick trip to town for a walk doesn't warrant crates, but everyone sits nicely until they are released.  Real trips, yes do require crates, and traveling in the RV always means they are crated, but once released, they still sit and wait until they are given the ok, and it doesn't matter how bad they have to go, they have manners that really negate the fear of "escape".  But, knowing that they ARE dogs and might someday have an uncontrollable impulse, means that I have trained rock solid recalls that are good in ANY situation.  And this includes a bit of wildlife darting or flying in front of them.....LEAVE IT means let it be and sit your butt down and wait for me.

Perhaps breed and biddability (if that's a word) is part of the equation, but without the training, it wouldn't matter one whit.

 So what do you do with a dog that *has* learned the "come" cue isn't enforcable on prey??

I've worked with Maggie for years and she recalls well off everything *except* deer and rabbits and I worked Z for months before etting her off lead, she had a perfect recall on everything, *until* she saw her first deer and since then also can't be called off prey.

Even the emergency whistle cue (conditioned for the last year or so with no mistakes) didn't work this week on deer, so I don't know what to do other than keep them on lead all the time, allow them to spend the 5 mins chasing critters until they come back (standard duration fo chase on deer for both dogs is 5-7 minutes over the only occurences of chasing - 1 for Maggie, 2 or 3 for Z), or use an ecollar.

Ayakia

Chuffy

 A whistle is nothing but another cue.  It's not inherently more or less effective in the long run than a verbal cue.

Sure, but a whistle is a sharp and different sound from a voice that the dog hears all the time. More effective in my opinion.

 A dog can still learn to ignore a sharp distinct noise!  If you train with it properly from the outset, then it is a wonderful tool.  But if you train "Come!" properly from the outset, that is perfectly effective as well.  The efficacy lies, as always, with the handler.... not the tool.  This goes for the e collar as well. 

Perhaps the whistle can carry further, but as I don't like the dogs to range TOO far from me anyway, it's not an issue.

I wish that I could answer that.  I use leave it when my dogs start after wildlife and it's always worked for me.  They stop, they sit and they wait.  They aren't afraid of my displeasure because I don't scold or really punish in any way, but they do know that pleasing me earns a HUGE, hunking reward, even if it's "only" praise.

glenmar

But then, off lead is something we do in SAFE places, like the woods, not in the middle of a town. 

This brings up a really good point.  I'm not asking this if you, Glenda, but I wonder how many dogs in general who are said to be "100% reliable" really are in an urban setting?  Honestly if I had country space or woods I wouldn't mind letting Coke off.  He went hiking off lead with his foster family.  My friend who insisted her dog was reliable let her dog out in my yard and her dog didn't listen one bit.  At the park when we run the dogs off lead in a large fenced field, the dog will come back, but in the city with all the other stuff going on?  Nah.

As far as the training and manners in general, Coke has no problems with waiting.  He is actually the best of the three dogs as far as not crowding doors, waiting to be released from the crate or the car.  That is what I mean by joking about trading Kenya's recall with Coke's "chill" attitude.  He moves at a slower pace and again, lacks the drive and intensity.  He actually walks up/down the stairs whereas the GSD are either sleeping or running like they are chasing a cheetah, no in between.  When I get home, Coke is sitting calmly in his crate, I open the door, he slowly crawls out and streeeetches, calmly walks with me into the yard, stands still while I attach his lead, and waits for my go-ahead.  The GSDs are barking and spinning circles.  They platz on their own and wait for the door to open, but when they are released to go outdoors they are like balls shot out of a cannon.  Coke has always been that way though.  Of course the formal training introduced the commands and the release, but even on his own he has always been slower, calmer, most likely to wait for me to lead him along rather than fly out of the car or push out of his crate.

This is all very interesting. Kivi's recall was perfect until one day he threw up in the car on the way to the beach. He had got a few of the treats we had been using for recalls beforehand and when he came galloping to our practice emergency recall that day he didn't want the treat. It all went downhill from there. We weren't able to get new treats fast enough, my partner insisted on trying the emergency recall when I knew it wouldn't work and now Kivi thinks for a good 3 seconds before coming. We are building it up again, and I think we will get there because he's an easy dog and the only thing in his world better than us and a tasty treat is playing with other dogs, and that's only because he's young and is stuck with miss grumpy pants Penny as a yard mate. However, I want my next dog to be a hard one, maybe a Basenji. I am going to be a lot more careful instilling a recall into that dog than I have been with Kivi. 

well, heck, I'll answer a question that wasn't meant for me......

There certainly have been times, such as with Tyler and the MS Walk when mine have been offlead in more urban areas and they've done exactly what they've been trained to do.  And there have been times when I have "proofed" their recall in areas that I don't consider "safe" only just to be 1000% certain.

Sheba, I will never trust entirely, simply because she is fearful and reactive.  That's why when we are in public places with her, she wears her basket muzzle.  She will absolutely recall to me, but, she might want to stop and scare someone first.  What can I say?  Sheba is my problem child.

Any dogs can ignore any noise if they so wish, that is why an emergency recall is exactly that "Emercency recall", not used all the time. If your dog does fine on a regular command then that is good, but for a special situation the emergency recall can be used.

I think that if the handler knows that the dog is not 100% the dog should not be off leash in an area with many distractions or an e-collar can be used. Just remember you need to judge if you can offer more than a chase after an animal or other things.