Training a pefect recall with an e-collar

Doesn't make much sense to me to train a dog to do as bidden by using an adversive, but, heck, I'm just an old fart.  I'll stick to my long lines for instillin a perfect recall.

corvus

Anyway, there is this notion that the only way you can train a reliable recall for many dogs is to use an e-collar. The method is not the usual zap if you're bad method but they use it on a very low setting, the idea being that the stimulation is supposed to tell the dog that a command is coming and they need to listen.

 

This is exactly how an e-collar is supposed to be used.  I don't know anyone that uses one differently.  Lou Castle is known for training this way and has lots of articles on his site.  The e-collar is negative punishment, NOT a correction.  So if I were training my dog to recall, I'd let him get distracted, give my command, and immediately turn on a very low continuous stim.  At first, as soon as he turns his head toward me, the stim ceases and he is rewarded.  I would NOT give the dog a command, wait for him to possibly ignore, then start nicking him.  That would be a great way to get a dog to hate a recall (sort of like how many people will yell "heel!" at their dog while jerking on the dog's collar).

http://www.loucastle.com/recall.htm

I think the "zap you're bad" method is used by old school trainers who are really into corrections and physically controlling a dog as their "training".  This is also how many people assume e-collar users use an e-collar.

glenmar

Doesn't make much sense to me to train a dog to do as bidden by using an adversive, but, heck, I'm just an old fart.  I'll stick to my long lines for instillin a perfect recall.

 

I will say I've never used an e-collar on my dogs.  But I have a dog who has never had any semblance of a reliable recall even being a mature adult, his foster home being experienced with large dogs and attempting to train him, and myself having put him through three different training classes to work on this issue.  The question that comes up is....so the dog is on a long line, so what?  If you say "come!" and he blows you off, what do you do?  Many people would tug on the line...sort of like a continuous low stim on a e-collar.  Get the dogs attention, get him moving (because with a recall the dog should never be allowed to blow off the command), then once he's turned his attention back to you, praise and reward.  Ideally, the dog would come because you are most important to him or you have something in your hand that he loves, but when you have a dog who loves independence and freedom to roam more than anything else in the world, the recall is something that either doesn't happen and the dog is always leashed, or it needs to be coerced for the safety of the dog (I've chosen the former, the dog seems happy enough in fenced areas or on long lines so the recall is just something that he doesn't do, sort of like not every dog will be a therapy dog, not every dog can learn agility, not every dog can earn SchH titles...).  It's really e-collar or bust.

Thanks Liesje. What I don't understand is why a dog would decide to not chase a rabbit, say, to avoid getting a low stim that is a bit annoying. As opposed to say not chasing a rabbit because you just called, which usually means the tastiest treat on earth is up for grabs. Just as an example.

Kivi is usually on a long line but I let it trail. It's basically there for when he's so caught up in playing he's not coming. The method to get him to do so is not to tug on the long line, it's to go after him, grab the long line so you can stop him for a second, at which point he looks up and you say "come on, let's go have some fun over here". Hopefully he agrees. If he doesn't, he might need a bit more encouragement.  

i dont see a difference (i might be wrong-lol) from the motivational standpoint. you dont start off a dog on a recall with rabbits around regardless of your method. with using treats the idea is communication (at least that is how i see it). you let the dog know that YES, coming here is what i wanted from you and eventually it should become simply THE thing to do, in the dogs mind...

then again, i STILL dont have a reliable recall if moca spots a cat, so maybe i do have it all wrong... lol

corvus

What I don't understand is why a dog would decide to not chase a rabbit, say, to avoid getting a low stim that is a bit annoying

The concept, I believe, is that the stimulation or shock interrupts the behavior (running away, for example) and gives the owner an opportunity to get the dog's attention and reward the dog for breaking off the chase.  In the bad old days of shock collars they were used as a way to "reach out and touch" the dog to stop unwanted behavior with a strong aversive (the shock).  They are still used effectively by many people but the advancement of the collars has allowed the dog to receive nothing more than a vibration with some of the newer collars.  Like the use of long lines, the tool is only as good as the person holding it.  E collars don't work if they aren't used consistently.  The dog also needs to wear the dummy collar so he does not become too collar wise.  When training, the dog has to believe that no matter how far away he is he can be corrected by his owner. Think of how long it takes to train a distraction proof down under any circumstance in any location.  Doesn't happen in a few days for most dogs and people. Most people just want to do use the collar a few times and then they are the ones who say it doesn't work.  Same with a long line, if you don't consistently use it when first teaching a recall the dog soon learns that he must listen and recall when the long line is on but can safely ignore the owner when wearing nothing. E collars are just tools and not inherently evil but in the wrong hands they can ruin a dog.  The reaction of most dogs when first shocked with a collar is to bolt and of course that is not the reaction any owner wants.  Dogs must be properly conditioned using the lowest possible settings and with the guidance of an experienced trainer. Many owners think of an e collar as some sort of short cut, in other words they are lazy and don't want to do the work.  My background in retriever training means that I have seen hundreds and hundreds of dogs trained using e collars.  I have been amazed at the skill of some trainers and horrified at the brutality of others.  My problem with them and I am talking about the collars with different shock levels, is that I have seen them used on dogs when the owner lost his/her temper and burned the dog for not understanding a concept. My training group was for the most part made up of good people with no desire to harm their dogs but we once witnessed a dog who had great potential turn into a confused, scared animal in just under ten minutes.  I have also seen dogs that have so much intensity and drive that the highest level of shock can't override their desire to go.  I don't think some dogs will ever have a perfect recall, no matter what tool or method is used.  I hate the fact that e collars are so readily available and seem like such an easy "fix" for some owners.  I wish the true shock collars had to be sold with the caveat that you must receive training to effectively use this tool. Unfortunately it's like owning a gun, the responsible people get training and the rest of the idiots just start shooting.

I have seen way to many dogs become "robots" through the use of e-collars, even by "professionals".  I see dogs that have become so "worried" about the shock they essentially "shut down".  There is no spring in the step, there is no sparkle in the eye. Oh yes these dogs behave, but at what cost.  I prefer to keep my dog on lead or a long line to adjust for a recall that may not be perfect in all respects, rather than have a dog who will no longer initiate a behavior due to the potential negative stimulus.  About the only people I have seen who have used them well have been the sporting dog folk who compete in duck trials.  However, I know that they often go through a LOT of dogs who could very well have responded as described above.  I did hear of one inidividual who trained a pit to a high personal protection level due to HIS orthopedic impairment.  A few stills I saw suggested it was well done in that case.

I'll be using an e-collar for recall on Nick up at the farm. Tia never needed one. I'm not so much concerned with perfection as I am with safety in emergency situations. There are coyotes up on the property, and you don't get a second chance once they lure your dog off into the woods to kill them.

I haven't had to use the e-collar for crittering with my cat, hens, or bunny because he's had no problem understanding that they are part of the "pack" and interacts with them just fine. Wild bunnies and deer are another matter. So, I will also be using the e-collar for recalling him from a prey-drive charge.

Fortunately, there are no poisonous snakes where I live. But I would also use an e-collar for anti-snake training in that instance.

Angelique

Fortunately, there are no poisonous snakes where I live. But I would also use an e-collar for anti-snake training in that instance.

This is another area where sometimes e collars work and with some dogs they don't.  For many years I was the person holding the long lead of the dogs being snake proofed.  There were many dogs who when shocked attacked the snake because some dogs don't back off from pain.   That's why if venomous snakes are used the fangs are removed and the venom extracted beforehand.

Angelique

I'll be using an e-collar for recall on Nick up at the farm. Tia never needed one. I'm not so much concerned with perfection as I am with safety in emergency situations. There are coyotes up on the property, and you don't get a second chance once they lure your dog off into the woods to kill them.

I haven't had to use the e-collar for crittering with my cat, hens, or bunny because he's had no problem understanding that they are part of the "pack" and interacts with them just fine. Wild bunnies and deer are another matter. So, I will also be using the e-collar for recalling him from a prey-drive charge.

Fortunately, there are no poisonous snakes where I live. But I would also use an e-collar for anti-snake training in that instance.

 

These are always the excuses that proponents of e-collars use, but from experience, just the other night, I let the girls out to the pen to relieve themselves.  When I opened the gate for them to go back to the house, Sequoyah took off after a rabbit that I had not seen.  I quickly uttered her emergency recall signal, and back she came. Her response is so conditioned that she does right, almost without thinking.

The reason it's so hard for most people to place a reliable recall on a dog is that they don't do all the necessary ground work, they let the dog off lead too soon, they poison cues, and, and, and.  If you start from square one, never let the dog realize that "come" might be optional, and reinforce heavily for correct response, the dog will recall just as easily as he will sit,  or stay, or leave it.  The best way to get a dog to come every single time is to convince the dog that no matter what he has, or is after, that getting to the human results in the best possible things happening for him. It's the same principle we use to teach a great "leave it", upping the ante each time, not because we think that we can actually deliver the cat into the dog's mouth if he wants it, but because we want the dog so conditioned to "leave it" and return to us for something better, that the one time we ask him to leave the scrambling cat, and he does, he will forgive us that all he got was freeze dried liver or his tennis ball, plus a lot of praise.

During my puppy classes, everyone is told to buy a whistle.  They are then instructed to, several times per day, do nothing except blow the whistle and feed a treat.  Sometimes, it's a kibble, sometimes it's TRIPE or LIVERWURST, and for some dogs, sometimes it's "da tennis ball" or da f-r-i-s-b-e-e, which the dog gets to catch and then go about his/her biz.  The owner is instructed NOT to use the whistle to call the dog.  They are also told to keep the training up for at least a month, and then do it intermittently from time to time.  Therefore, the whistle gets to mean lots of good things, the dog never knows which, but, most importantly it never fails to predict a reward, and is ONLY used in emergencies to call the dog.  Many of my students have been pleasantly surprised when, in just such an emergency situation, they took that whistle out, blew it, and Fido came bounding back to them - because he was thoroughly conditioned to expect his reward.   It's not the only technique we use, but it's the simplest, one of the easiest, and the whistle can be left on the key ring with your car keys, handy for most situations.  Same principle as Fido always showing up when the can opener runs, or the cookie jar opens, but this one can save his life.  Just a suggestion for those of you who might want to try a different tack before resorting to the e-collar option, which, incidentally, I don't recommend for many reasons. 

corvus

What I don't understand is why a dog would decide to not chase a rabbit, say, to avoid getting a low stim that is a bit annoying. As opposed to say not chasing a rabbit because you just called, which usually means the tastiest treat on earth is up for grabs. Just as an example.

 

Why would a dog ever decide not to chase a rabbit?  For some dogs, the tastiest treat on earth IS a rabbit.  In some cases, training a recall really is a life/death situation, when a dog blindly chasing a rabbit is at risk of being road kill.  If that's the case I have no problems using an aversive.

There are people who believe the only way to get a reliable recall is with an e-collar.  I'm not one of those people.  I have a dog with a foolproof recall and I've never even trained a recall, she just prefers to stick by me or circle me and if I say her name she comes closer.  But there are dogs where doing jumping jacks with a tug toy and a steak in hand means nothing.  For me a recall is not a choice.  Ideally when I give the command, the dog will choose to do it, but if he does not, he's still going to come back to me one way or the other.  I've not tried the e-collar yet because we don't have any problems just using management (ie, not letting the dog off lead), but if I did, I see it this way: either I go out to retrieve the dog myself because he WILL come back when called and nobody wins/no reward, or I give the e-collar a try and assuming it will actually work he will get rewarded every time.  The my puppy I reward EVERY time.  He knows what the command means but while he is young and impressionable I want it set in stone.

I'm not a trainer.  I don't have a trainer in my back pocket to help me in situations.  All I can say is that my dogs LOVE to run, love their freedom and given their own choses, would chase whatever they see.

When I started working my dogs on long lines, I really wasn't sure what I was doing, but I got trained right along with them.  The long line teaches them to pay more attention to me, to be constantly listening to me, or checking back to see where I am, so that when I drop the line, or don't bother to put it on, this is an ingrained behavior.  I don't have a dog who will get more than 50 feet in front of me, most far less, because I used 50 foot lines.  Even totally off lead, they will trot out in front of me, or even charge, but when they reach the "distance" they stop, turn around to check me, wait or come charging back at me and then off on their own again.  I can tell my dogs to stay on the path, or "nope, not that way" and they listen, and I can call them off whatever happens to be running in the woods.

With the younger dogs, I started this long line training as pups.  With the older dogs, we learned as we went.  Yet every single one of them has what I consider to be a perfect recall.

Liesje

corvus

What I don't understand is why a dog would decide to not chase a rabbit, say, to avoid getting a low stim that is a bit annoying. As opposed to say not chasing a rabbit because you just called, which usually means the tastiest treat on earth is up for grabs. Just as an example.

 

Why would a dog ever decide not to chase a rabbit?  For some dogs, the tastiest treat on earth IS a rabbit.  In some cases, training a recall really is a life/death situation, when a dog blindly chasing a rabbit is at risk of being road kill.  If that's the case I have no problems using an aversive.

There are people who believe the only way to get a reliable recall is with an e-collar.  I'm not one of those people.  I have a dog with a foolproof recall and I've never even trained a recall, she just prefers to stick by me or circle me and if I say her name she comes closer.  But there are dogs where doing jumping jacks with a tug toy and a steak in hand means nothing.  For me a recall is not a choice.  Ideally when I give the command, the dog will choose to do it, but if he does not, he's still going to come back to me one way or the other.  I've not tried the e-collar yet because we don't have any problems just using management (ie, not letting the dog off lead), but if I did, I see it this way: either I go out to retrieve the dog myself because he WILL come back when called and nobody wins/no reward, or I give the e-collar a try and assuming it will actually work he will get rewarded every time.  The my puppy I reward EVERY time.  He knows what the command means but while he is young and impressionable I want it set in stone.

If you begin correctly, and don't let the dog think that recall is a choice, you will get the recall you desire.  I also want my recalls set in stone, but to do it I am willing to put in the work and not allow the dog any freedom until the work is done.  The one mistake most people make while training the recall is to let the dog off leash too soon, and thus allow him to make an error.  The best recalls are made by repetition and by constantly conditioning the dog that the handler is the bearer of all good things.  JMHO, but having seen a lot of dogs that don't come if the e-collar slips off (yes, they can tell the diff between I have one collar on or I have two collars on), I want a dog that comes if all the collars come off, if the batteries fail, if it's thundering, if a rabbit runs by, or if the Almighty is calling him from the other side of the beach.  The situation I want to have is that the dog never chooses not to come in the first place.

There are dogs that get it right away, such as German Shepherds and other breeds, but there are breeds that will give you a run for your money. In that case a good whistle recall can be trained and if nothing has worked and it comes to a life or death situation I would use an aversive. That being said, I firmly believe that many people lose interest, are just too lazy or move on to a new dog, some might not even know how.