Training a pefect recall with an e-collar

corvus

Does anyone have any experience training dogs to a recall using a vibration? Does it really work when a dog is hooning after something and in the zone? SD, do you think deaf dogs respond to the vibration very reliably? 

To be honest, I don't think it's the vibration, or the electric stim, that produces the best recalls.  It's training methodically, and never letting the dog think that "come" is optional.  Most people let the dog off lead FAR too soon, and they don't know how to use absence of a reward to solidify the dog's response.  Plus, as we have discussed many times here, they think that food is the only thing they can use to reward the dog.  But, rewards come in many "flavors", and trainers need to be creative, especially with dogs that are not all that food motivated.  It is the handler's responsiblity to issue a command BEFORE the dog gets "too honed in".  And, despite the fact that so many people think they must use pain in those circumstances, there are dogs that, once they hone in, are not deterred by that either.  

mudpuppy

But um, people always jump to conclusions. Electricity MUST be more aversive than vibrations or smells or noises. Many dogs don't react in a way that supports this conclusion. I have a loud beep tone option on my remote collars and one of my dogs leaps in terror if ever beeped but responds without the slightest hint of aversion to a very low level electrical tickle. Really the low levels just feel odd, weird, tickles.

Totally true from my experiences using e-collars with my dog and dozens of others.  (I also find it interesting that many of the same people who are scared of them have never felt the stim themselves.  At the levels I use with Gracie, it feels like a little bug ran across my hand.)

You know, one of the worst reactions Gracie ever had to training was during Therapy Dog training.  When the instructor blew the air horn (something startling and potentially "scary";) we were all supposed to laugh it off like it was nothing.  Well, the room full of laughing people sent Gracie into shivers and it became an aversive to her - laughter.  So, to me, it all pointed to how things are associated.  With the e-collar, Gracie gets treats and praise and freedoms and the associations are good things.  I know plenty of dogs who have the same association with their e-collars.  Does that mean they are excited for "pain"?  Seriously?

miranadobe

I know plenty of dogs who have the same association with their e-collars.  Does that mean they are excited for "pain"?  Seriously?

I know dogs like this too, many of them.  The e collar was properly introduced and used and the dog associates it with something it really likes to do.

yeah my dogs go into transports of delight at the sight of the ecollars. They used to go run and hide when I pulled out gentle leaders. Your dog gets to decide what is aversive and what is not, not you.

They pay attention to the tickle because if they don't they get a zap!

 

I wonder if that is interpretive, though, because in my experience, people who use the method of directive versus corrective would increase the stim, but not "dramatically" - which, to be honest, "tickle" up to "zap" implies a dramatic increase. 

corvus:

There are no consequences for my dogs if they don't come to their recall.

  For me, there are consequences in real life which are far more painful than a half-level increase on a collar.  Say, for instance, the impact of a car, or the kick of a horse, etc.  I'd rather have control over the application of more gentle consequence than watch my animal suffer for my own needs.

I agree entirely. When I got my remote collars, I tried them out on myself and several other people. The level at which the sensation was described as "painful" by most was declared as "out of bounds" for application to dogs. The "working level" of the dogs is remarkably low- one friend of mine claims to feel nothing at the working levels, and to me it just feels like a bug walking across my hand. I've NEVER cranked it up to a zap, at most up to what I would call a "pins and needles" sensation. It works because it's very distracting to a dog to have this weird sensation right there right now. And it works because before you go out in the field the dog has been carefully conditioned in what the sensation means and in how to turn the sensation off.

The consequence of most dogs not recalling instantly is dead so letting them decide for themselves is, in this circumstance, not humane. Either keep on a leash or train that recall. Most commands aren't that serious, but the recall is deadly serious work.

What I believe is that e-collar training, as any punishment training, has been found to actually be LESS effective than properly applied positive reinforcement training.  I think the methods are both effective.  But, my preference is to use the one that is a bit more effective, AND does not use pain.  If the collar never hurt the dog, how would he know to respond to the "tap"???  He knows because the next thing that comes after the tap is the zap. 

common mistake, not true. The best use of ecollar is as negative reinforcement, not punishment. The dog knows how to respond to the "tap" because you taught him the command using say chopped up hotdogs first. Let me go over the steps again:

1) in the backyard you teach the dog what "come" means by using pure reward-based methods

2) next phase, in the backyard, dog not distracted, you apply the low-level estim milliseconds before you say "come"; the dog usually appears puzzled and hestitates and then "comes"; the second he makes a move towards you, the stim is turned off. Dog gets his hotdog. You repeat this step until the puzzlement and hesitation go away. Dog has learned that to "turn off" the mildly unpleasant stim he obeys the command given.

3) next phase, in the backyard, dog not distracted, you say come, if the dog instantly complies, no stim; any slowness or hesitation, stim is applied.

now you take it on the road and slowly add in distractions. The only reason you would ever slightly increase the level of the stim is if the dog is in a really distracting situation and doesn't seem to even notice the lower level of stim. The dog is NEVER "zapped" and never gets overt pain from the collar.

I personally only use ecollars for proofing recall training, but a dog who has been taught "how to turn off the stim" can learn many very sophisticated behaviors rapidly, much as a clicker-trained dog can. It's sort of the converse- the dog is enpowered to control what happens to him through his own actions, the timing and communication with the dog can be controlled to the millisecond. It is an aversive though, but not pain.

Some people do use painful zaps from ecollar to punish, but that does not mean one must do so or that the tool is "bad". Some people use prong collars to keep their dogs from pulling them around, and some people use prong collars to deliver painful punishments; does that mean everyone who has a prong collar is "bad"? no, it's all in how you use the tool. You could throw clickers at your dog to punish him, or punish him by pinning him down and shoving big wads of meat down his throat until he choked. It's all in how you use the tool.

Benedict

like a Greyhound or a Whippet, and yet those are dogs famed for having terrible recalls

I happened to see this and an answer came to me, as a matter of function of the work. Like sled dogs, Whippets and especially Greyhounds are racing dogs. The most important thing is the desire to run after the lure faster than any other dog. Dogs that like to recall may not develope much speed or independent desire for speed because they're too busy recalling to you and see what you want next.

Just as Sibes were never bred for recall or a lot of herding. They were bred to run fast.

mudpuppy

Some people do use painful zaps from ecollar to punish, but that does not mean one must do so or that the tool is "bad". Some people use prong collars to keep their dogs from pulling them around, and some people use prong collars to deliver painful punishments; does that mean everyone who has a prong collar is "bad"? no, it's all in how you use the tool. You could throw clickers at your dog to punish him, or punish him by pinning him down and shoving big wads of meat down his throat until he choked. It's all in how you use the tool

And that post, in it's entirety is excellent and how one should use an e-collar. I still hesitate to use one because I know what it's like to be shocked. It's a personal thing, sorry. But the principles are there. Be that as it may, 120 V feels like only a nerve tic to me. 277 V hurts and gets my attention. 480 V of a neutral bar wakes me up, too.

An e-collar works with a high voltage and extremely small current, something like the way an arc welder works.

 Regardless of way e-collars work, they are very expensive and it seems to me the dog kinda needs to have it on whenever you need to recall them. I would rather not fork out for a collar that I then become dependent on. But can you train a dog that would normally not even hear your verbal recall to come when called without the physical reminder however mild it is?

Spiritdogs, I watched Leslie Nelson's RRR and she seemed to think it was important to let the dog have time to run around off leash while still developing the recall. Can you explain why you disagree with that or if I have interpreted it wrong?