Training a pefect recall with an e-collar

corvus

Yeah, but WHY is an e-collar more effective than rewards? That's what I don't get. It seems to me that the method is pretty much the same and takes the same amount of time, but one just uses R+ and one uses R-.  

1.  Some dogs just don't care for dog treats or toys or playing with their humans, at least not as much as they would value their freedom or a good chase.

2.  Timing and consistency.

With the e-collar, I would also use R+.  Mark and reward the dog for a head turn, coming in, etc (whatever your criteria is).

 OK, here's a question...let me preface the asking of it by saying I have never used an e-collar or even held one, on the whole I'd probably never use one but that is to do with the type of dogs I am ever likely to have, rather than any philosophical problem with them. 

Different dogs/breeds have different pain sensitivities, and I don't think (if I ever were to use an e-collar) that I'd use one on any breed known to have a sensitive neck, like a Greyhound or a Whippet, and yet those are dogs famed for having terrible recalls.  Instead they are kept on lead or in contained areas where they can't run off.  Why is that not the answer for another dog who won't recall, to the point where an e-collar is considered? 

Liesje

1.  Some dogs just don't care for dog treats or toys or playing with their humans, at least not as much as they would value their freedom or a good chase.

2.  Timing and consistency.

I think that people are missing two important points.  Firstly, if you do a lot of conditioning, it is unlikely that your dog will not recall even if confronted with something running by that he wants to chase.  But, that does take a lot of up front work, and you must condition the recall in lots of different locations with lots of different distractions before ever having the dog off lead.

Secondly, you do NOT have to use toys or play.  A reinforcement is something the DOG wants, so it pays to know what your dog values most.  That is what you use as the reinforcement.  And, use real meat, not dog treats, if you do use food.  Most dogs will work, at least part of the time, for things like tripe, liverwurst, cheese, cream cheese, peanut butter, or other stuff that they don't normally get at any other time.  If you have a dog that likes to play with other dogs, you can, once you have done at least some distraction training, reinforce him for a good recall by immediately letting him go play with a buddy.  I would like to see people really learn how to train this AND get creative about the reinforcers they use!

Benedict

 OK, here's a question...let me preface the asking of it by saying I have never used an e-collar or even held one, on the whole I'd probably never use one but that is to do with the type of dogs I am ever likely to have, rather than any philosophical problem with them. 

Different dogs/breeds have different pain sensitivities, and I don't think (if I ever were to use an e-collar) that I'd use one on any breed known to have a sensitive neck, like a Greyhound or a Whippet, and yet those are dogs famed for having terrible recalls.  Instead they are kept on lead or in contained areas where they can't run off.  Why is that not the answer for another dog who won't recall, to the point where an e-collar is considered? 

It is one answer, but the reason for teaching the recall, even to dogs that should be leashed or contained, is the "just in case".  Just in case you fall and the lead slips from your hand, just in case someone leaves the latch open, just in case the dog gets bored and digs under, etc.  Using breed as an excuse is not an excuse in my book.  We regularly have hounds, terriers, and other independent or difficult dogs do very well in our recall classes IF the handlers take the time to learn, and put in the effort to practice.

spiritdogs

It is one answer, but the reason for teaching the recall, even to dogs that should be leashed or contained, is the "just in case".  Just in case you fall and the lead slips from your hand, just in case someone leaves the latch open, just in case the dog gets bored and digs under, etc.  Using breed as an excuse is not an excuse in my book.  We regularly have hounds, terriers, and other independent or difficult dogs do very well in our recall classes IF the handlers take the time to learn, and put in the effort to practice.

No, I get that and wasn't trying to use the breed as an excuse, maybe I wasn't clear.  If an e-collar couldn't be used on a dog with a sensitive neck (and maybe I'm wrong about that?) then the owners of those dogs have to find other ways to manage the issue, to train recalls etc.  I know both a Grey and a Whippet who HAVE perfect recalls, so I'm just wondering whether it's more acceptable to use one on a "tougher" dog. 

IF the handlers take the time to learn, and put in the effort to practice

I think this is the key, time and practice.  It took River many, many months to be as reliable as he is.  In my everyday life I recalled him and rewarded (with different things) every-time.  If I were in the kitchen I would reward with food.  If I were in the bath and called, it might just be an enthusiastic scratch and happy voice.  Outside we have an e-fence so he could run loose and I could recall and feel safe if he didn't respond.  On walks I would let him get ahead and recall him, etc. etc.  I the woods I would start with a long leash.  If he were laying down sleeping I would call him to me at times, just to proof a response while he was sleeping.  It was constant recall training no matter what I was doing.

I see what your question is Kate, but, unfortunately, I don't have a good answer for you.

I think that a lot of folks feel more comfortable with a "tool".  Looking back on when I finally broke down and used a prong with Thor, the ONLY thing the prong did was to get his attention.  Because I was using this tool, and because I wanted to be darned sure not to allow this thing to harm him, I was far more assertive and far more in control.  Yes, the discomfort of the prong helped to break his concentration on pulling me off my feet and down the street, but I was the key in the whole thing.  I couldn't see that then, but I do see it clearly now.  This is a dog who could literally pull me off my feet when I was "being a tree" and drag me down the road on my butt.

That little foray into what I consider the "dark side" of training opened ME to finding new and better (for me) ways to train future dogs.  And I continued to work with Thor in those gentler ways.  All but Sheba have earned their CGC's, all have perfect recall, all can be easily called from running prey with a "leave it".

Someone here, probably Anne, said that if the gentle method didn't work, you probably went too fast.  So we had many, many times of stepping back, trying again, waiting longer, working longer.  German shepherds are not what I would consider low drive dogs and they love the chase as much as any other breed.  And I don't know what I'm doing.  But I did it.  And I'd put any of my dogs recall up against any other method of training in a heartbeat.

spiritdogs

I think that people are missing two important points.  Firstly, if you do a lot of conditioning, it is unlikely that your dog will not recall even if confronted with something running by that he wants to chase.  But, that does take a lot of up front work, and you must condition the recall in lots of different locations with lots of different distractions before ever having the dog off lead.

I getcha.  The dog isn't coming back for the treat anymore, he is coming back because it's all gone Classical.  Like Pavlov & His Amazing Dribbling Dogs.  So they are at the point where they come back because it's kinda ingrained... it's just what you do.

So.... do you wait for it to become a classically conditioned response before taking off the long line?  Is that what you mean about removing the lead too soon?

spiritdogs

Secondly, you do NOT have to use toys or play.  A reinforcement is something the DOG wants, so it pays to know what your dog values most.

Most of the time, what my terrier wants, is go to and play.  So I make a point of releasing him to go and play almost immediately, as often as possible.  Usually means a couple of "dummy runs" on our walks, where I recall "for no reason" just so I can praise him up and let him go again, and I can't do it if I am recalling him AWAY from something dangerous, or getting too close to a road for example.

Benedict

spiritdogs

It is one answer, but the reason for teaching the recall, even to dogs that should be leashed or contained, is the "just in case".  Just in case you fall and the lead slips from your hand, just in case someone leaves the latch open, just in case the dog gets bored and digs under, etc.  Using breed as an excuse is not an excuse in my book.  We regularly have hounds, terriers, and other independent or difficult dogs do very well in our recall classes IF the handlers take the time to learn, and put in the effort to practice.

 

No, I get that and wasn't trying to use the breed as an excuse, maybe I wasn't clear.  If an e-collar couldn't be used on a dog with a sensitive neck (and maybe I'm wrong about that?) then the owners of those dogs have to find other ways to manage the issue, to train recalls etc.  I know both a Grey and a Whippet who HAVE perfect recalls, so I'm just wondering whether it's more acceptable to use one on a "tougher" dog. 

If it is unethical to use it on a dog with a sensitive neck and NOT unethical to use it in a breed that DOESN'T have a sensitive neck, then it just means it's another tool that can be tried on the latter group.  What works for one dog may not work for another, the more tools at your disposal the better?

Chuffy

If it is unethical to use it on a dog with a sensitive neck and NOT unethical to use it in a breed that DOESN'T have a sensitive neck, then it just means it's another tool that can be tried on the latter group.  What works for one dog may not work for another, the more tools at your disposal the better?

Absolutely, and I like "tools".  I love Ben's new 2" martingale more than life itself because it does make me more vigilant about a problem we've had since he was a puppy and that problem is now more on the way to being solved in 6 weeks than in the 2.5 years before that.  My question was more "IS it ethical to use just because you can?"...I think in this case probably yes, it is, but I wanted to raise the question.  

See, to me, the prong was a LAST resort.  An ecollar wouldn't even be in my things to think about list.

I guess I'd rather my dogs come on command because its become the learned behavior rather that "gee, if I don't come, I'm gonna get zapped and that HURTS".  I'm just saying.......

I was soooo super careful with that stupid prong that people were telling me that I wasn't using it correctly.  But, I didn't WANT to cause my dog pain.  A little pinch was way more than enough as far as I was concerned.  But, I honestly think that I made 200% MORE progress once we went to the long lines than I ever did with the prong.  The prong just made me feel like I had more control.  In reality I didn't because I was so ubber careful that it didn't hurt him.

spiritdogs

Liesje

1.  Some dogs just don't care for dog treats or toys or playing with their humans, at least not as much as they would value their freedom or a good chase.

2.  Timing and consistency.

 

I think that people are missing two important points.  Firstly, if you do a lot of conditioning, it is unlikely that your dog will not recall even if confronted with something running by that he wants to chase.  But, that does take a lot of up front work, and you must condition the recall in lots of different locations with lots of different distractions before ever having the dog off lead.

Secondly, you do NOT have to use toys or play.  A reinforcement is something the DOG wants, so it pays to know what your dog values most.  That is what you use as the reinforcement.  And, use real meat, not dog treats, if you do use food.  Most dogs will work, at least part of the time, for things like tripe, liverwurst, cheese, cream cheese, peanut butter, or other stuff that they don't normally get at any other time.  If you have a dog that likes to play with other dogs, you can, once you have done at least some distraction training, reinforce him for a good recall by immediately letting him go play with a buddy.  I would like to see people really learn how to train this AND get creative about the reinforcers they use!

I don't disagree.  My problem is I have a dog who seems to require absolutely perfect timing and consistency, and in our world that's just not possible.  I've done several sessions where I recall him and then he's "released" to run free with the other dogs.  However, planning something like this can happen maybe once every few months, if that.  It involves finding a safe place to work off leash and getting together other dogs and people.  Coke is my heart dog but in terms of training, my husband wanted a dog that was more his temperament and a dog he could learn to train.  Turns out, my husband is just not a good trainer, not that he doesn't try, but his timing is off, he confuses the dog, often he forgets to reward or he rewards too late and the dog has already broken focus.  The more I try to help him, the more flustered he gets.  He's done two classes with Coke and is starting a class with Kenya next week, so it's not like he doesn't try, but he's not a dog trainer.  I can't really blame him for that because I think dog training is a skill, some people just don't "get" it at first and as much as we love our dogs, he can't exactly quit his jobs to train dogs.  I have no problems managing Coke, he has never escaped from me.  I don't really care if he never has a 100% recall.  It does not affect his quality of life and he does everything my GSDs do (play in the yard, go on walks, run at the park, take training classes, go to the pet store...).  As far as the rewards, none of those things matter to Coke as much as freedom.  My other two will do backflips for the stuff you mention but not Coke.  There is nothing I can offer him that he wants more than freedom, which as I've said we have tried with some success but it's nearly impossible to coordinate on a regular basis since it involve's someone else's property and someone else's dogs.  I'm sure in a perfect world where we had access to all the various tools and rewards and space we need to work with Coke, he could very much improve but the world is not perfect and we have to work with what we have.  Not to mention he just doesn't have fun training.  If the dog would rather play fetch on a long line than do training for a raw steak, that's fine with me.  At present, I'm OK with management.  The dog is safe and I am in control.

Don't be so hard on your partner. A lot of people are not particularly good at understanding how to communicate EFFECTIVELY with animals, but fortunately that's okay because we surround ourselves with animals that do actually want to communicate with us for whatever reasons and are a zillion times better at it than the best the human world can produce. It often irks me how my partner chooses to interract with Kivi, but Kivi is his dog as well and he is wholly capable of learning the way I talk to him and the way someone else talks to him. I mean, I say "down" and other half says "drop". He barks it out and I ask pleasantly. The hand signal is roughly the same but even that varies between us. Kivi just had to learn two commands that mean the same thing, basically. He picked it up fine, as I knew he would because I have this little wild hare who can do the same thing and doesn't have the benefit of a long association with humans or even a particular desire to hang out with us that dogs have. My aim with Kivi has been to give him as much help as I can to figure people out. The best way I can do that is be consistent and let other people deal with him however comes naturally to them as much as possible. Yes, he was initially confused, but man he picked it up fast. All you need is one thing roughly the same and he can figure out the rest.

You don't have to be a good dog trainer to train dogs. You just have to have a dog that is remotely motivated to understand you. And possibly a lot of time and patience.

corvus

You don't have to be a good dog trainer to train dogs. You just have to have a dog that is remotely motivated to understand you. And possibly a lot of time and patience.

I love this statement! So true and so necessary to remember sometimes when we are analyzing everything to death.  Someone told me years ago that most dogs will learn what it takes to successfully get along with their human companions in three years without any formal training and in some cases in spite of the "training"  (LOL) if they are allowed to be a part of the family.  We are generally so inconsistent that it takes this long for the average dog to see the patterns and to figure out what works and what doesn't.

That's the point, I'm NOT hard on him.  He's not an obedience competition sort of dog and DH would much rather play with his dog than be training him.  Both he and dog dog seem to prefer that, just goofing off.  What little training they do is generally turned into some form of game but honestly, the dog does not know any more commands now than he knew when we got him (well, he has learned that he has to WAIT when I open the car door until I release him before he can get out).

It seems that we like to judge training skills based on dogs' recalls.  We just do whatever makes them happy.  For Kenya that's a lot of OB.  She needs mental stimulation and lots of interaction and approval or she literally starts spinning in circles.  She needs it much more than physical exercise.  Nikon is smart and picks up things fast but doesn't much care of OB but he's so young and with SchH we will not start serious OB until he's over a year old anyway.  He does OB because he knows a tug game is coming.  He is all GO and drive, so his activities revolve around running and drive activities like chasing "prey", tug, bitework, bark-and-hold, etc.  Coke is neither drive nor mental stimulation.  He needs more physical exercise than Kenya actually, but he has no drive or motivation to train and work, he's all about play play play, and frankly he's perfectly happy playing by himself.  We took the dogs to the park today, Kenya and Nikon chased the entire time and Coke just ran off and went sniffing and running around by himself.