Training a pefect recall with an e-collar

JackieG

  Someone told me years ago that most dogs will learn what it takes to successfully get along with their human companions in three years without any formal training and in some cases in spite of the "training"  (LOL) if they are allowed to be a part of the family.  We are generally so inconsistent that it takes this long for the average dog to see the patterns and to figure out what works and what doesn't.

Awesome!  Coke still has 1/3 of his time left to figure it out, lol....

I do think they pick up some things on their own.  Nikon has never gone into the basement or even tried.  Coke and Kenya were trained not to go down there and it took a while to train Coke since he loves the cats, their food, and their poo.  Nikon sees Coke stop at the doorway and lie down and he does too.  I can be down there for over an hour cleaning and he won't take a step down the stairs.

Chuffy

spiritdogs

I think that people are missing two important points.  Firstly, if you do a lot of conditioning, it is unlikely that your dog will not recall even if confronted with something running by that he wants to chase.  But, that does take a lot of up front work, and you must condition the recall in lots of different locations with lots of different distractions before ever having the dog off lead.

 

I getcha.  The dog isn't coming back for the treat anymore, he is coming back because it's all gone Classical.  Like Pavlov & His Amazing Dribbling Dogs.  So they are at the point where they come back because it's kinda ingrained... it's just what you do.

So.... do you wait for it to become a classically conditioned response before taking off the long line?  Is that what you mean about removing the lead too soon?

spiritdogs

Secondly, you do NOT have to use toys or play.  A reinforcement is something the DOG wants, so it pays to know what your dog values most.

 

Most of the time, what my terrier wants, is go to and play.  So I make a point of releasing him to go and play almost immediately, as often as possible.  Usually means a couple of "dummy runs" on our walks, where I recall "for no reason" just so I can praise him up and let him go again, and I can't do it if I am recalling him AWAY from something dangerous, or getting too close to a road for example.

Bingo on all points!!! 

Sorry Liesje. I know you're not critical of your partner and Coke, I was just sensing some exasperration there through my emotive type interpretation senses. I may have been off track! I was imagining that it's tough sometimes when you have different aims with your dogs than your partner does with his, who you also have to live with.

This morning I got rope burn on one finger from Kivi unexpectedly jerking a wet long line caked in gritty sand through my fingers. Why did that happen? Because it was my partner's turn to take care of him this morning and my partner doesn't see anything wrong with letting Kivi get away from us to go play with another dog whose owner is actually trying to keep him under control and having less success than we are with Kivi. I thought it would be better to at least keep pace with Kivi so I could curb his enthusiasm and better judge what this other owner wanted. Sometimes I do the "well let's go together" compromise, which has worked wonders with Pyry in the past, who has no recall to speak of.  Anyway, it annoyed me because I was trying to have a relaxing morning with Penny and couldn't let go enough to do that as long as Kivi was charging around being over excited.

At least Kivi's recalls were good this morning. He ran the length of the park for his meatball even though he started to get tired towards the end, and he came away from a couple of dogs he wanted to go say hi to, after thinking about it for a few seconds. I think we will get a reliable recall on him despite his poisoned emergency recall and obsession with other dogs, but he's a very easy dog with not a lot of drive.  

glenmar

I guess I'd rather my dogs come on command because its become the learned behavior rather that "gee, if I don't come, I'm gonna get zapped and that HURTS".  I'm just saying.......

Reading between the lines a bit here, but I don't think that is how it works or how it is meant to be used.  Seems like it's just a physical interruption, like if you were just SO focused on something you didn't hear that they were trying to speak to you, so they tapped you on the shoulder.  It's not a punishemnt for disobeying the recall, or straying too far from their person.  Maybe some people use it like that, but ANY tool can be misused. 

Chuffy

glenmar

I guess I'd rather my dogs come on command because its become the learned behavior rather that "gee, if I don't come, I'm gonna get zapped and that HURTS".  I'm just saying.......

 

 

Reading between the lines a bit here, but I don't think that is how it works or how it is meant to be used.  Seems like it's just a physical interruption, like if you were just SO focused on something you didn't hear that they were trying to speak to you, so they tapped you on the shoulder.  It's not a punishemnt for disobeying the recall, or straying too far from their person.  Maybe some people use it like that, but ANY tool can be misused. 

It can be used as a tap on the shoulder, as a remote social correction, or as a strong Operant Conditioning aversive in the case of crittering or snake-proofing.

Remember, it is just a tool and a lot depends upon the skill and intention of the handler.

The concept in crittering and snake-proofing is to get the dog to associate the aversive and unpleasant experience with the other animal so they avoid that animal. The dog should not be associating the aversive with the handler or the collar. This is why special care must be taken in having the dog wear the collar long enough before and after it is used in this manner to prevent the dog from making the wrong association.

With recall, you do want the dog to associate the tap on the shoulder or the correction with the handler, but still not the collar.

I don't know if I explained that very well. I've rarely used these collars.

I'm sure others with more experience could explain it better.

 But still, why would a dog pay attention to a tap on the shoulder? Isn't it vulnerable to the same pitfalls as other methods? The dog can learn to ignore it as well as anything else, right?

Please, don't feel offended by my post, but I think a dog's recall is very important, if the dog is taken anywhere, recall is even more important. I really don't understand how easily it can be brushed off. Jeepers, please train a solid recall , it can be a life saver for the dog!

I don't even want to mention how many dogs have been missing due to that.

Liesje

JackieG

  Someone told me years ago that most dogs will learn what it takes to successfully get along with their human companions in three years without any formal training and in some cases in spite of the "training"  (LOL) if they are allowed to be a part of the family.  We are generally so inconsistent that it takes this long for the average dog to see the patterns and to figure out what works and what doesn't.

 

Awesome!  Coke still has 1/3 of his time left to figure it out, lol....

I do think they pick up some things on their own.  Nikon has never gone into the basement or even tried.  Coke and Kenya were trained not to go down there and it took a while to train Coke since he loves the cats, their food, and their poo.  Nikon sees Coke stop at the doorway and lie down and he does too.  I can be down there for over an hour cleaning and he won't take a step down the stairs.

Coke should have figured it out by now, no excuses.

It might be the training where Coke fails,sorry to say, but in my experience, it is usually true.

 Well I'll let my husband know he's a failure at dog training.  I'm sure his life will be over...

Liesje

 Well I'll let my husband know he's a failure at dog training.  I'm sure his life will be over...

No fair, lol.

Don't push it onto your DH if you are involved.

I don't have a problem containing my dogs.  Being such contextual animals, he acts differently with DH than he does with me.  I cannot force a dog to respond to DH the same way he responds to me, that's up to DH to work on if he wants to or not.

Liesje

I don't have a problem containing my dogs.  Being such contextual animals, he acts differently with DH than he does with me.  I cannot force a dog to respond to DH the same way he responds to me, that's up to DH to work on if he wants to or not.

I understand your situation.

I do believe that all dogs in one household should be trained the same, same protocol by all.

Ayakia

I do believe that all dogs in one household should be trained the same, same protocol by all.

Mine have been trained the same, save for the rewards used (Kenya - food and praise; Coke - FOOD; Nikon - food and tugs or balls).  Same methods, same tools, same trainer, same facility, same locations outside of home, same requirements as far as manners and self-control.  They all respond differently to the same forms of training, which I think is part of the fun of having multiple dogs, I don't want them to all be the same or be perfect at the same things and I don't think it's fair to expect every dog to perform equally.  Even using the same protocol does not guarantee that two people can implement it with perfect consistency or that the dog's relationship with each individual does not factor in. 

I've never used an e-collar or an e-fence and don't plan to but I won't say that you can't achieve a reliable recall using an e-collar.

Liesje

Ayakia

I do believe that all dogs in one household should be trained the same, same protocol by all.

 

Mine have been trained the same, save for the rewards used (Kenya - food and praise; Coke - FOOD; Nikon - food and tugs or balls).  Same methods, same tools, same trainer, same facility, same locations outside of home, same requirements as far as manners and self-control.  They all respond differently to the same forms of training, which I think is part of the fun of having multiple dogs, I don't want them to all be the same or be perfect at the same things and I don't think it's fair to expect every dog to perform equally.  Even using the same protocol does not guarantee that two people can implement it with perfect consistency or that the dog's relationship with each individual does not factor in. 

I've never used an e-collar or an e-fence and don't plan to but I won't say that you can't achieve a reliable recall using an e-collar.

I don't think anyone ever claimed that you should use the same training for all dogs, as all dogs are different.

But, just giving up on a dog claiming that the dog is not good enough claims failure, that means your training is not good enough, sorry to say.

Ayakia

I don't think anyone ever claimed that you should use the same training for all dogs, as all dogs are different.

But, just giving up on a dog claiming that the dog is not good enough claims failure, that means your training is not good enough, sorry to say.

Who is giving up on their dog?  If we agree that training should be specialized, then why does he have to be trained the same way and to the same extent as any other dog?  He's doing therapy training for TDI and the local group.  Plenty of dogs are not appropriate for therapy dogs, if someone doesn't therapy certify their dog are they also "not good enough"?  Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks (and dogs).