Training a pefect recall with an e-collar

Mostly soft dogs are trained for Therapy training. Congrats....., but still, these dogs need a solid recall.

Are we in that arena

Many dog breeds are not typically great at recall and it is often recommended that they never be allowed off leash. No one I know would tch tch someone who didn't have a perfect recall on, say, a husky. That's not to say it can't be done or shouldn't be attempted, but it is well known that some dogs are not typically reliable.

 And this is kinda what I'm talking about. Would an e-collar work for these dogs where a pile of rewards would not? Let's stick to the topic, please, and address the how's rather than just condemning people.
 

Very good!

But, you claimed he doesn't have a good recall, and you brushed that off.

So, does he?

Ayakia

Mostly soft dogs are trained for Therapy training. Congrats....., but still, these dogs need a solid recall.

Are we in that arena

Whether a dog is soft or not has little to do with recall training.  I find that, soft or hard, it is the independent breeds that have the most trouble.  However, they can be trained to have a solid recall, too.  If we want to get back OT, the issue on this thread is not about whether to train a recall or not, but whether e-collar training is more effective than reward-based training at doing so.  I think not.  I think the methods are both effective, but that e-collar training, as any punishment training, is LESS effective than properly applied positive reinforcement training.    But, my preference is to use the one that is a bit more effective, AND does not use pain.  If the collar never hurt the dog, how would he know to respond to the "tap"???  He knows because the next thing that comes after the tap is the zap.  I'd rather my dogs think that getting to me means liverwurst, frisbee, fun, going for a ride, chasing the squirrel, and all the other best things in life. 

corvus

 And this is kinda what I'm talking about. Would an e-collar work for these dogs where a pile of rewards would not?

If the negative reinforcement (electric shock) was stronger than the stimulus the dog is responding to it will work.  IF the dog has been properly conditioned to the e collar.  If you slap a collar on a dog and take it for a walk in the woods and the dog takes off after a deer and you shock him, chances are he will bolt in terror unless he has been taught what that shock means.  The collars are designed to allow you to increase the level in small increments.  You want the level high enough to get the dog to respond to the command without flinching or showing pain from the shock.

I have an e collar but I haven't used it in more than 15 years. I don't do field type training any more either because I became disillusioned with the whole concept of "forcing" dogs to perform to such a ridiculously high level. I admit that I still get a thrill out of watching these high powered dogs but I don;t have the temperment for the training. LOL I  have a JRT who is extremely driven to chase anything moving away from him but he spent virtually the first 7 years of his life on a lead or long line before I deemed him trustworthy and only in certain areas. All of his recall training was positively reinforced and he is constantly checking in for a treat and my other dogs have started recently to notice this and now when he comes back for a treat, they follow him over and are rewarded with a "good here" and a treat.  I just won't take a chance with my dogs' lives and if that means I am not a good trainer, I can live with that.

spiritdogs

Ayakia

Mostly soft dogs are trained for Therapy training. Congrats....., but still, these dogs need a solid recall.

Are we in that arena

 

Whether a dog is soft or not has little to do with recall training.  I find that, soft or hard, it is the independent breeds that have the most trouble.  However, they can be trained to have a solid recall, too.  If we want to get back OT, the issue on this thread is not about whether to train a recall or not, but whether e-collar training is more effective than reward-based training at doing so.  I think not.  What I believe is that e-collar training, as any punishment training, has been found to actually be LESS effective than properly applied positive reinforcement training.  I think the methods are both effective.  But, my preference is to use the one that is a bit more effective, AND does not use pain.  If the collar never hurt the dog, how would he know to respond to the "tap"???  He knows because the next thing that comes after the tap is the zap.  I'd rather my dogs think that getting to me means liverwurst, frisbee, fun, going for a ride, chasing the squirrel, and all the other best things in life. 

I know at least four hunters who have trained their hunting dogs with an e-collar, none of the dogs seem to have any negative affects, as a matter of fact, I have never seen more Labs and other hunting dogs more behaved and happy.

Anne, we  were posting at the same time and as usual you worded it so well. :)

Ayakia

I know at least four hunters who have trained their hunting dogs with an e-collar, none of the dogs seem to have any negative affects, as a matter of fact, I have never seen more Labs and other hunting dogs more behaved and happy.

You haven't seen enough of what I have as far as training retrievers with e collars if you think these four dogs are representative. I have seen many dogs ruined almost beyond repair with the e collar in the hands of the wrong person. It took me almost year to get a dog back in the water after he had been burned by his previous trainer for having an unenthusistic entry.  The e collar is a tool, as stated multiple times in this thread, but it is one of the most abused tools, IMO, in retriever training.  I said it earlier and repeat, the e collar can be used to achieve great results but I think they should only be used by experienced professionals for certain behaviour corrections or by owners who have been thoroughly trained by a professional.  And that starts me up all over again in regards to certain retriever trainers who are top professionals but I wouldn't leave my dogs with them for five minutes. OK, I'm done.

JackieG

Ayakia

I know at least four hunters who have trained their hunting dogs with an e-collar, none of the dogs seem to have any negative affects, as a matter of fact, I have never seen more Labs and other hunting dogs more behaved and happy.

 

You haven't seen enough of what I have as far as training retrievers with e collars if you think these four dogs are representative. I have seen many dogs ruined almost beyond repair with the e collar in the hands of the wrong person. It took me almost year to get a dog back in the water after he had been burned by his previous trainer for having an unenthusistic entry.  The e collar is a tool, as stated multiple times in this thread, but it is one of the most abused tools, IMO, in retriever training.  I said it earlier and repeat, the e collar can be used to achieve great results but I think they should only be used by experienced professionals for certain behaviour corrections or by owners who have been thoroughly trained by a professional.  And that starts me up all over again in regards to certain retriever trainers who are top professionals but I wouldn't leave my dogs with them for five minutes. OK, I'm done.

 

Thank you for reading my post right.

I said at least "FOUR" hunters.And how do you know these hunters were not doing their jobs right?

Ayakia

Thank you for reading my post right.

I said at least "FOUR" hunters.And how do you know these hunters were not doing their jobs right?

I think the point I was making is clear and you are splitting hairs.  I'm not in the mood to argue today.

Ayakia

Mostly soft dogs are trained for Therapy training. Congrats....., but still, these dogs need a solid recall.

I don't know, plenty of SchH3 working line GSDs have TDIs on them as well (Delta does not allow it) and plenty of soft dogs are way too nervy for therapy work.  None of the therapy certs we've done have required a distance off leash recall so it's not necessary for that aspect of Coke's training.

corvus

Many dog breeds are not typically great at recall and it is often recommended that they never be allowed off leash. No one I know would tch tch someone who didn't have a perfect recall on, say, a husky. That's not to say it can't be done or shouldn't be attempted, but it is well known that some dogs are not typically reliable.

Exactly, that's why I don't see why Coke is such a big deal.  Most pet owners I know can't be bothered to even attend a basic obedience class with their dog, let alone train a super-proofed long distance recall.  I do not think it is necessary if it is not affecting the dog's quality of life.  For the record, Coke has passed the CGC twice and that involves a recall.  He has no trouble with daily activities like me calling him from another part of the house, calling him back in from the yard or from another part of the yard.  But I don't consider that a super-proofed recall.  I personally do not put any of my dogs into situations they can't handle or won't obey.

And this is kinda what I'm talking about. Would an e-collar work for these dogs where a pile of rewards would not? Let's stick to the topic, please, and address the how's rather than just condemning people.

I think it depends.  It depends on WHY the other methods didn't work, what does the e-collar really offer that other methods do not?  That depends on the dog and handler.  Some will use an e-collar as negative punishment and others will nick to correct.  Just using an e-collar alone does not always clarify what method the trainer is using and why.

Liesje

But is it b/c of training, or does it have more to do with breed, their attachment to you, their level of drive, how easy they are to motivate, etc? So many people describe how they train a recall and how the dog caught on and make it sound so easy....is that the training or the dog's predisposition to being trained?  I train recalls the same way and have two completely different results between two dogs.  Nikon is 4 months old and is as reliable as a 4 month old can be, he has always been off leash at home and we don't have a fence.  I let him out to potty by himself and he comes right back, or if he gets distracted I simply call him back in.  We built his recall doing all the "positive" things everyone else does - marking and rewarding at first for a head turn, turning and running to make it a chase game, doing recall games back and forth between two people....and yet at 4 months he's 100 times more reliable than his adult "brother" who's been through much more training.

Lies, I think it's all of the above - breed, which in the case of GSDs means a LOT of attachment to you, and a certain amount of drive and biddability, but especially the part of your post that I bolded. I think the foundation work that you've done with Nikon is particularly key in explaining the difference between him and Coke. That's not to say that you can't have a great recall with a dog acquired as an adult, but IMHO, there is simply no substitute for getting them young and getting that foundation training in right from the very beginning. You'll just have to work harder at it with Coke to teach him something that seems practically effortless with Nikon.

I never worked very hard on recall training with Dena & Keefer either. But I did do tons of foundation training with them around the house, almost all of it off leash, and we went regularly to off leash parks from a young age. We got far enough from the parking lot to feel safe, took off the leash and kept walking. It was up to them to keep an eye on us and stay close, and they did. Being off leash was no big deal because it was totally routine, and they'd been heavily rewarded around the house for paying attention to me and coming to me. I never even used a long line.

On Keefer's 6 month birthday we were at the park and had stopped to talk to a woman we'd seen there several times before with two GSDs. One was a geriatric girl, and her younger one is several months older than Keef. She's also a trainer. As we were standing there talking Keef  was romping  around with another dog, and as the dog left, he ran after it. I simply said "Keefer, come" in an ordinary voice, and he immediately turned around and ran back to me. Jane commented that he had a very good recall and wanted to know how I'd trained it. And I realized that I really hadn't done all that much that was recall specific. But I had built a strong foundation of training in general, that had sort of bled over into creating a good recall, even under distracting surroundings.
 

 Someone else on the other forum has answered my question. They pay attention to the tickle because if they don't they get a zap! How sneaky. Here they are telling me they don't use the collars as a P+ tool and always use a low stim but they fail to mention the bit where they use P+ if the R- doesn't work promptly. No thanks. There are no consequences for my dogs if they don't come to their recall. My job is to make choosing to come the sensible choice in their minds, not to make ignoring me the bad choice.
 

corvus

Someone else on the other forum has answered my question. They pay attention to the tickle because if they don't they get a zap! How sneaky. Here they are telling me they don't use the collars as a P+ tool and always use a low stim but they fail to mention the bit where they use P+ if the R- doesn't work promptly. No thanks. There are no consequences for my dogs if they don't come to their recall. My job is to make choosing to come the sensible choice in their minds, not to make ignoring me the bad choice.

Hmmm, I've not heard of them being used that way.  I've heard people describe that this is how they are used, but thankfully have not actually met anyone who uses one that way.  I would not condone using an e-collar like that.  I think the majority of people don't have proper training with an e-collar and never use R-.  They call the dog, dog doesn't respond, they start nicking the dog.  I don't like that either.  Both these ways make the recall a painful, negative experience for the dog.  Why would he ever want to come without the collar on if the collar = zap?  Same reason a lot of dogs are terrified of e-fence collars when not introduced properly.   Then there's the other segment of the e-collar users that use R- and R+.  Rewards are used just like "purely positive" training but the e-collar stim is used in place of reeling the dog in on a line or going out to grab the dog's collar and pull him in.  From what I've heard/read, it's most successful with dogs that do have a good foundation in recalls but need the "tap on the shoulder" to get their attention when they want to proof high distractions and/or greater distance.