Training a pefect recall with an e-collar

corvus

 But still, why would a dog pay attention to a tap on the shoulder? Isn't it vulnerable to the same pitfalls as other methods? The dog can learn to ignore it as well as anything else, right?

corvus - have you ever heard of that experiment where they wired a cat up to some machine that went "beep" when the cat heard a tone?  And then they stuck a mouse outside the cage thinking the cat would notice it and focus on it but the machine would still go "beep", signalling that the brain had heard the tone but the cat would ignore it because he was interested in the mouse?

Well, the brain did not even register the tone.  This happened consistently.  When a dog gets THAT focused on something, he may not HEAR the recall cue... but a tap on the shoulder is right THERE.  It's not that the tap on the shoulder is more "bad" than the treat is "good".  It's just that it is more immediate.  Does that make sense?

I am learning about this, too here.

Liesje

Ayakia

I don't think anyone ever claimed that you should use the same training for all dogs, as all dogs are different.

But, just giving up on a dog claiming that the dog is not good enough claims failure, that means your training is not good enough, sorry to say.

 

Who is giving up on their dog?  If we agree that training should be specialized, then why does he have to be trained the same way and to the same extent as any other dog?  He's doing therapy training for TDI and the local group.  Plenty of dogs are not appropriate for therapy dogs, if someone doesn't therapy certify their dog are they also "not good enough"?  Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks (and dogs).

Sounds like Coke is just a "slower learner" than the other dogs where recall is concerned.  He is a Special Needs Recall Dog!

Liesje - FWIW I am positive that you are doing everything you can to train Coke, while being prepared to manage him effectively in the long term while that training takes place.   We'd all like our dog's to be perfect recallers, like, well, yesterday, but if they aren't then they aren't and we have to accept that leaning ANYTHING takes time... and some things take some individuals longer to learn than others.

corvus

They pay attention to the tickle because if they don't they get a zap!

I wonder if that is interpretive, though, because in my experience, people who use the method of directive versus corrective would increase the stim, but not "dramatically" - which, to be honest, "tickle" up to "zap" implies a dramatic increase. 

corvus

There are no consequences for my dogs if they don't come to their recall.

I don't think it is a dramatic increase in the stim. 

It's my job to keep them safe however I can, but I don't want to coerce them. They are both pretty good on recalls.
 

Chuffy

corvus

 But still, why would a dog pay attention to a tap on the shoulder? Isn't it vulnerable to the same pitfalls as other methods? The dog can learn to ignore it as well as anything else, right?

 

corvus - have you ever heard of that experiment where they wired a cat up to some machine that went "beep" when the cat heard a tone?  And then they stuck a mouse outside the cage thinking the cat would notice it and focus on it but the machine would still go "beep", signalling that the brain had heard the tone but the cat would ignore it because he was interested in the mouse?

Well, the brain did not even register the tone.  This happened consistently.  When a dog gets THAT focused on something, he may not HEAR the recall cue... but a tap on the shoulder is right THERE.  It's not that the tap on the shoulder is more "bad" than the treat is "good".  It's just that it is more immediate.  Does that make sense?

I am learning about this, too here.

But, you do not need an e-collar to deliver that "hint".  A vibration collar can do the same, provided the dog is trained to a conditioned response.  We use vibration collars, with no zap settings, to train deaf dogs.

I really like the idea of the vibration collar because now that I think about it I'm guessing the girls really didn't truly "hear" their recall.  Given that they came back running full tilt after just 5 mins of chasing I have to wonder if they turned around when the call registered - so 2.5 mins into it - and thus perhaps a true "tap" from a vibration collar would be EXACTLY what we needed for proofing.....hmmmmm definite food for thought.....

any suggestions for souces of vibrating collars?

spiritdogs

Chuffy

corvus

 But still, why would a dog pay attention to a tap on the shoulder? Isn't it vulnerable to the same pitfalls as other methods? The dog can learn to ignore it as well as anything else, right?

 

corvus - have you ever heard of that experiment where they wired a cat up to some machine that went "beep" when the cat heard a tone?  And then they stuck a mouse outside the cage thinking the cat would notice it and focus on it but the machine would still go "beep", signalling that the brain had heard the tone but the cat would ignore it because he was interested in the mouse?

Well, the brain did not even register the tone.  This happened consistently.  When a dog gets THAT focused on something, he may not HEAR the recall cue... but a tap on the shoulder is right THERE.  It's not that the tap on the shoulder is more "bad" than the treat is "good".  It's just that it is more immediate.  Does that make sense?

I am learning about this, too here.

 

But, you do not need an e-collar to deliver that "hint".  A vibration collar can do the same, provided the dog is trained to a conditioned response.  We use vibration collars, with no zap settings, to train deaf dogs.

Oops - I thought they were both referred to as e-collars and could both be used that way!  Shows how much I know... 

spiritdogs

But, you do not need an e-collar to deliver that "hint".  A vibration collar can do the same, provided the dog is trained to a conditioned response.  We use vibration collars, with no zap settings, to train deaf dogs.

Then why is one instantly dismissed and condemned but the other is OK?  To me that's the same thing.  A remote training collar that delivers a continuous stim, not a nick/zap.

 The reason vibrating collars are aok to most people is that it's not an aversive in most cases - you might be able to argue that a low stim isn't either but most peple will think/feel that a non electric shock vibration is going to be more likely to be a neutral stimuli vs. electric shock.

I guess it depends on the collar.  If I buy one eventually it will be a higher end Dogtra and all Dogtra collars now have vibration modes.  I just don't see the point in getting two collars based on the stigma people have created by using them improperly.  Besides the crappy models, the vibration collars I've come across have not been cheap and many of them come with shock modes.

Yea I've noticed most of the pager features are only on collars w/ shock as well and a two dog model that has the range I'd need is about $250 at minimum.  Of course DH being as handy with electronics as he is, we're looking into having him just create one on his own.  The plans online say the parts cost between 5 and 10 bucks and he certainly has the skills to make them in a few hours.  We'll see...

Does anyone have any experience training dogs to a recall using a vibration? Does it really work when a dog is hooning after something and in the zone? SD, do you think deaf dogs respond to the vibration very reliably? 

stardog85

Yea I've noticed most of the pager features are only on collars w/ shock as well and a two dog model that has the range I'd need is about $250 at minimum.  Of course DH being as handy with electronics as he is, we're looking into having him just create one on his own.  The plans online say the parts cost between 5 and 10 bucks and he certainly has the skills to make them in a few hours.  We'll see...

You should sell 'em!

LOL DH is trying to start some business ventures and I always tell him dog stuff sells. ;)

I would think deaf dogs would respond to a vibration as well as any dog to a regular recall, the question is if they are *more* relible because of the physical stimulation vs. solely auditory.  It would make sense if, all training the same, that were the case given studies like the one mentioned about the cat and attention vs. cuing.

I know a beagle mix who was trained to recall with a pet pager. But um, people always jump to conclusions. Electricity MUST be more aversive than vibrations or smells or noises. Many dogs don't react in a way that supports this conclusion. I have a loud beep tone option on my remote collars and one of my dogs leaps in terror if ever beeped but responds without the slightest hint of aversion to a very low level electrical tickle. Really the low levels just feel odd, weird, tickles. Also some trainers I've talked to report many dogs seem to react with great aversion to the vibrating features of older collars. I used to think the biggest problem with the vibration vs. estim was the vibration was always a shout whereas the e-stim could be adjusted as needed, from a soft whisper to shout as the dog and conditions required. However, they have come out with a new line that has adjustable levels of vibration so perhaps the problem has been overcome?

I like to think of remote collars as cell phones. If you're busy and your mom shouts at you from across the house you may well ignore her; if your cell phone rings in your pocket you're probably so well-trained to grab it and answer it you'll do it reflexively without thinking twice or worrying about what you're doing.