Alpha rolls and the dominance myth

snownose

Honestly, sweetie....haven't you had your run at a rescue, and you felt and found out that was too much?

Don't worry about the easy dogs.....concentrate on the hard dogs........they are around....and I have seen them ........ack......hard as can be......but, they still need a home.......

I'm not talking about myself, my acquaintances that run the MIGSD rescue and another that I can't remember the name of.  I haven't done any dog rescuing, only dog shelter work and cat rescuing/fostering, so I wouldn't have felt or found out anything yet...Mandy was not too much for me personally, we wanted to keep her and she really loved DH, she was too much for my neighbor (who lives in the same house b/c it's a duplex).   In the short time we had her, we clicker trained her to sit and respond to her name.  She didn't have any dominance issues though, so I doubt rolling (again, whatever the definition is...) would have served any purpose.  Actually, when I took her to the vet, they recommended I leave her there b/c she was so underweight and had the parasites.  They said she would be pooping all over my house and all the other animals could easily get the bug from that so for everyone's health and the sanity of my neighbor she stayed with the vet tech until the rescue foster person came.  She is going to make an awesome pet once she is finished with her rehab!  Maybe Phil can convince the landlord to add a third dog to the lease...

Liesje

and she has laid down and rolled over for me.  Generally when this happens I feel I have accomplished nothing because the dog is showing me submission when I really wanted something else (stop jumping on me and hurting me, stop getting in the cat's face, etc)

I'm lost, you complain because she laid down and rolled over for you, therefore she stopped jumping on you, stopped getting in the cat's face,etc. which is actually what you wanted anyways, so if she stopped to laid down how come you think you didnt accomplish anything? IMO you actually accomplished what you wanted 

Why do we need to make this personal? About Shadow's nails, Liesje's rescue experience.

Snownose, you don't actually provide much in the way of details about your "protocol."

As for dogs as hard as they come - they don't all need a home. Some need to be put down.

We worked with a trainer who specializes in assessing and treating aggression in large powerful dogs. He has the best behaved dogs I've ever met. And he would be the first person to say that rolling an aggressive dog is absolutely foolhardy.

Rescue dogs need structure. They need boundaries. DPU has provided an example of very good ways to provide that. The last thing a rescue dog needs is a person with something to prove about dominance.

You [generic you] can be physical without being macho. If you need to restrain a dog, restrain a dog. But don't fool yourself that rolling a dog over will teach it to think you are mighty and awesome.

The last two paragraphs are not about you, snownose. I have no idea what you do.
 

Dog_ma

As for dogs as hard as they come - they don't all need a home. Some need to be put down.

Yep......maybe, are you the one to call the shots?

Dog_ma

Snownose, you don't actually provide much in the way of details about your "protocol."

You love research.....do it.....I have been here long enough to explain what my protocol is.......but, I want to add, I will do what I can to offer a dog a chance........always have, always will........but, in the end, I also realize when I have reached the end........

I don't play" rotato "dog and I always work to make sure all dogs get along and are loose ..........remember,last year I had six dogs getting along just fine.......(that included a Husky rescued straight out of a shelter).....oh, never mind the cats....lol......

Wanted to add, the Husky out of the shelter came from Ohio.....it was a dog in need before being killed that week......us living in North Carolina took it upon us to drive to Ohio and get this dog............he had to be put in a boarding facility which was arranged by the rescue in Ohio.....we had no clue what this dog was all about........the rescue had no clue what this dogs was all about......BUT......we went to get him and save his life......DH and I have rescued dogs this way for years........right to the point of him calling me and telling me he would be showing up with two rescues straight out of a shelter........I am not a pro at training........but, I have done my share of rescue and integrating of new arrivals.....we have paid out of our own pockets and made sure these dogs and cats got taken care of in co-operation with rescues......so, I am not trying to be one up......understand........

Yeah, well I ain't massively experienced with wild animals, but I can restrain one that has the means and the motivation to rip me up without flipping it onto its back or some such. Given, sometimes flipping an animal on its back and pinning it there does wonders to calm it, but for me that's a last resort because I have this sneaking suspicion animals held forcefully on their backs go quiet because they are so terrified they have to switch off or they'll keel over and die from the sheer stress of the situation. Now, when it comes down to it, the bigger the animal, the greater the capacity of that animal to hurt you, and the less force you want to be using because said animal can overpower you, and then you're in trouble. If an animal can overpower me, or has the capacity to do me serious harm, you can bet I use the least force that I can get away with, and I avoid putting it in a posistion that frightens it even more than being held normally.

I'm sorry. I know I don't rescue dogs and therefore everything I say is to be taken with a grain of salt, but I honestly can not imagine how a dog no matter how messed up could be worse than, say, a large possum that thinks you're about to kill it. Or a cow with nothing between it and freedom but a piece of rope in your hands, that suddenly decides it has had enough of you and your rope. That's the extent of my experience with tricky animals (ignoring the one rescue dog I have had in my life, that decided one day to see the end of Penny once and for all), and in both cases, I've discovered on my own that they come around if you're nice to them. And if you're always nice to them, they never think you're going to kill them or decide that they've had enough of you and your rope in the first place. Yep, even the ones that have thought in the past that a human was going to kill them come around, and as long as you're sensible and don't put them into a situation that is too much for them to manage before they come around, they never do cause you trouble or greivous bodily harm, even when you start doing mean things to them every now and then.

If they don't come around, they'd be happier in doggy heaven or species-specific equivalent. 

Incidentally, Four, my dog doesn't dictate where I go to the toilet because my dog doesn't care. I care very much where both of us go to the toilet, so I win on that account. My dog cares very much for other things, and when she cares more than I care about her doing something different, she gets what she wants. I'm not a leader, I'm just the anally retentive member of the partnership. And the one blessed with foresight. And for the record, I hate force, but I use it, especially when I care a whole lot about the dog doing something she cares almost as much about NOT doing.

Tanner (GSD) with the new kitty" Bebe".....the cat that has never been introduced to dogs .....until now.........

Neat how the kittie's fur and the throw rug match.

 I don't know what that's supposed to prove, snownose.

snownose

Actually, this is not in my protocol

I know it's not in your protocol. Notice the smiley at the end of the sentence? It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Or, are the smileys not functioning? They've been trying to fix the pm thing and it resulted in getting my password changed.

snownose

Ron, please, get a life and understand how things are done

I do already have one. It's a good deal longer than yours, but that's not a comparison.

snownose

Actually, why don't you clip your dog's nails?

I was wondering about that.....Shadow's nails needed to be clipped a long time ago........are you scared

The nails are short. And no, I wasn't scared. I was clueless at the time ( at least 3 years ago). Being clueless and not appreciative of the danger is what got me that problem situation from 3 years ago.

 I got a clue since then. And now, I can handle his feet.

Also, 3 years ago, I would have to drag him into the vet's office and drag into the examining room. I only have to time to visit a couple of times a year. So, call it maybe 6 visits total since then. I can walk him into the office and into the examining room. Not bad for someone who doesn't have a clue. I would put a smiley in here but they may not be working and my sense of humor will be lost.

I appreciate the passion and sacrifice that you have for this, as well as the resources. To whom much is given, much is expected. And you don't rest on your laurels. That is commendable and it is honorable. But I wonder what the contention is about. If scruff and pin is not in your repertoire of methods and the title of the thread and the op is about the ineffectiveness or generally unnecessary move of scruff and pin (aka alpha roll), then what is so wrong? All we've done is say that we don't agree to using as standard practice a technique that you don't use, either. And I added that it could be a necessary move in certain circumstances if nothing else can work, even if I don't like using it and try to steer clear of it. I also don't like having to get shots for the dog but it is necessary. I don't like the risk of any surgery but neuter was necessary, to me. Of the people here, I'm one of the few who have actually used it and seen it's effectiveness or non-effectiveness.

So, here's my current view on the alpha roll or scruff and pin. It is a physical hold that immobilizes some dogs and might be necessary in certain situations. But I do not think that it accomplishes the social status meaning that some people intend for it. And it is not for all dogs. I turned out to have a dog that would put up with it, I think because he is both tough and was raised with wrestling for play, so it felt like play to him. Another dog might not think the same thing. While it turned out to be inneffective for me, it also turned out to be not dangerous for me. I'm sure with your varied experience (that is a compliment) that you could agree that each dog must be "read" correctly before you do anything.

corvus

 I don't know what that's supposed to prove, snownose.

Really,......what?

Only, that this kitty that came to us from a Navy/Service member.....and has never been around dogs .......

It's ok.......get on with yourself.....argh......

never mind your dogs being totally stupid and silly......do you have any cat pics interacting with your dogs????? Or cats that have never been around dogs???

espencer

Liesje

and she has laid down and rolled over for me.  Generally when this happens I feel I have accomplished nothing because the dog is showing me submission when I really wanted something else (stop jumping on me and hurting me, stop getting in the cat's face, etc)

 

I'm lost, you complain because she laid down and rolled over for you, therefore she stopped jumping on you, stopped getting in the cat's face,etc. which is actually what you wanted anyways, so if she stopped to laid down how come you think you didnt accomplish anything? IMO you actually accomplished what you wanted 

Well, I can get her to stop jumping by saying "sit" or stop pestering cats by saying "leave it!" (and she doesn't pester them now that she has Coke).  I don't want my dog going into submission like that, rolling over and exposing her belly.  To me that is overkill and not a balanced relationship.  I guess it's nice to know that she *will* do it if I use a harsh verbal correction, but it's really not necessary at all and she is not learning what it is I didn't like her doing, only that I have an angry voice and she thinks I'm wanting her to submit.  I do not want that level of submission during daily activity.

In the past I have been physical with her in a variety of ways: carrying her, lifting her, holding her face while the vet performed a painful procedure, clipping her nails 1-2 times a week (just did it last night and she was NOT happy b/c one of her nails has a chronic problem), stacking her, gently rolling her on her side to check all over for fleas and ticks, treating a chronic wound in her foot...if she had an aversion to being manhandled, she would have shown it by now.  I am not afraid to get physical with my dogs (Coke is another story, he LOVES being physical and we carry him around like a baby and wrestle with him), but I don't feel I *need* to use an alpha roll to maintain that.  She has never shown any sort of aggressive reaction to being examined or manhandled by me or any of her vets/vet techs.  I have no reason to correct her by rolling her, or to roll her for the sake of being able to do it. 

snownose

corvus

 I don't know what that's supposed to prove, snownose.

Really,......what?

Only, that this kitty that came to us from a Navy/Service member.....and has never been around dogs .......

It's ok.......get on with yourself.....argh......

never mind your dogs being totally stupid and silly......do you have any cat pics interacting with your dogs????? Or cats that have never been around dogs???

I'm not sure either what it proves?

I was a cat person long before I was a dog person. I've actually used Sasha, on numerous times, to help socialize cats who were afraid of dogs or who had never been exposed.  I've never rolled Sasha, or the cat, in doing so. My three cats are feral rescues, tamed but not really domesticated, and they hate dogs. Any dog in my house has to learn strict manners about dealing with the cats, who from a dog's point of view act a lot like prey. When we had a party crasher invite himself to my house (a strange 80 lb lab), he wanted to eat my cats reallllly badly. I managed to not let him do that without any scruffing, rolling, or chest beating.

We all think it is wonderful that you work so hard to rescue animals. No one doubts that. What I personally can't see is the reason for so much negativity towards other posters? We can disagree without making things personal. 

In case your question to me was serious and not rhetorical, no I am not nor have ever claimed to be the judge of what dog lives and what dog doesn't live. If you believe that there are no dogs too dangerous to live an ordinary domesticated doggie life, then we disagree. And I'm ok with disagreeing about that.  

Dog_ma

I'm not sure either what it proves?

Again......really? Only, that cats and dogs live in harmony here......not enough?