Alpha rolls and the dominance myth

snownose

Again......really? Only, that cats and dogs live in harmony here......not enough?

Was alpha rolling used to achieve the cat/dog harmony? 

For myself and unequivacable nope.

My cats have a safe room.  In the RV, the bathroom belongs to them.  My dogs are not allowed to bother the cats and that starts from the minute they enter my home.  Fosters are like wise not allowed to bother the cats.

Of course with my crew, the worst danger to the cats is loosing their food to an ever hungry GSD......or having the cat box "cleaned out by one.

glenmar

For myself and unequivacable nope.

My cats have a safe room.  In the RV, the bathroom belongs to them.  My dogs are not allowed to bother the cats and that starts from the minute they enter my home.  Fosters are like wise not allowed to bother the cats.

Of course with my crew, the worst danger to the cats is loosing their food to an ever hungry GSD......or having the cat box "cleaned out by one.

Me either, hence why I asked, since it was brought up in the alpha rolling thread.  I've never had to roll a cat or dog during an introduction.  I think my current cats have been introduced to 5 different dogs in my home.  Previous cats/fosters...I'm not really sure of the count, just that the intros have always gone smoothly when well-managed.  I have the opposite problem though, my ballsy cat will steal food from the dog's bowl! 

Admin speaking..

Anyone who is unable to discuss this topic without making it personal or being sarcastic should not be discussing it at all.  If you have an issue with another member, PM them and discuss it respectfully.  This thread is to be civil and on topic.

The nastiness stops.  Now. 
 

I don't know either.  I've got some pretty drivey dogs myself, but there are just flat out rules that mine won't break.

It's hard for me to imagine alpha rolling a cat and not getting completely torn up in the process.  Ouch! 

ETA: My apologies Kate, and the explanation that nothing I said is directed at anyone. Just my mussings.

glenmar

ETA: My apologies Kate, and the explanation that nothing I said is directed at anyone. Just my mussings.

My apologies as well, I only asked b/c I really am curious.  I'm assuming there is a connection since it was brought up in this thread about alpha rolling.  Perhaps alpha rolling is used to elevate the status of the cats?  If so, I've been lucky since Kenya has been submissive to my cats from day one, and Coke just wants to play with them so status has no effect on his behaviors towards them.  The other dogs were on a temporary basis, but I don't recall any behaviors towards the cats that I felt put either in danger or warranted me physically enforcing a hierarchy.  Actually, I have elevated the status of the cats by allowed them access to the furniture, which the dogs now have but did not at first, and allowing the cats in certain "high" places like a ledge, windowsill, top of the entertainment center, etc.  It's funny, if Kenya is sleeping somewhere (in her crate, on the couch, alongside a windowsill) and a cat comes above her, she immediately gets up and leaves.  Her crate and the couch are her favorite places to sleep, but she leaves if Beckham sits on the crate or the back of the couch.

Liesje

snownose

Again......really? Only, that cats and dogs live in harmony here......not enough?

 

Was alpha rolling used to achieve the cat/dog harmony? 

No, but....what I remember from your posts is this........Coke being a menace and chasing the cats......am I wrong?

*content removed, personally directed*

snownose

Liesje

snownose

Again......really? Only, that cats and dogs live in harmony here......not enough?

 

Was alpha rolling used to achieve the cat/dog harmony? 

No, but....what I remember from your posts is this........Coke being a menace and chasing the cats......am I wrong?

*previously removed content*

He chases Marijke only, if she runs, but this week it seems she's finally gotten over it b/c she's been walking around the house like the other cats and realizing he doesn't chase anyone unless they are running around like a terror.  I guess it just took her a while to figure out he doesn't want to eat her.  Last night they were face to face for a while and neither one cared.  The other two have never been bothered by him or cared about him.  Besides, what does it have to do with alpha rolling?  I'm getting more confused by the minute...

Both my dogs and all the cats have free reign of the home and furniture without any alpha rolling or power struggles going on, either between dogs, dogs and humans, or dogs and cats.  I don't have to separate or confine my dogs for any reason, I don't have to separate or confine my cats or keep them "safe" from my dogs.  The last dog I took in without knowing how long I'd have him also had free access to the house.  He even slept in our bed (with Coke and Kenya in the room) during the night.

I'm simply wondering why the cat subject and rescue subjects were even brought up...if there is no relevance to alpha rolling.  If there is, I'd like to know what. 

Liesje

snownose

Liesje

snownose

Again......really? Only, that cats and dogs live in harmony here......not enough?

 

Was alpha rolling used to achieve the cat/dog harmony? 

No, but....what I remember from your posts is this........Coke being a menace and chasing the cats......am I wrong?

*previously removed content*

 

He chases Marijke only, if she runs, but this week it seems she's finally gotten over it b/c she's been walking around the house like the other cats and realizing he doesn't chase anyone unless they are running around like a terror.  I guess it just took her a while to figure out he doesn't want to eat her.  Last night they were face to face for a while and neither one cared.  The other two have never been bothered by him or cared about him.

*previously edited content*

OMG........lol

repost of Admin warning, as some seem to have missed it.

===============================================

Admin speaking..

Anyone who is unable to discuss this topic without making it personal or being sarcastic should not be discussing it at all.  If you have an issue with another member, PM them and discuss it respectfully.  This thread is to be civil and on topic.

The nastiness stops.  Now.

*content removed, take it private*

snownose

*content removed, take it private*

Okies.......I will......

My Loki (chow/GSD cross, since passed away so he's not in my signature anymore) has alpha rolled Rakka. When he rolled Rakka, she was pestering him and nipping at his face. She rolled her and not only did he not try to kill her, but he didn't even bite her. He pinned her on her back, growled, and let her go when he was satisfied. She fought back but she's about half his size, so he easily kept her in place. She didn't pester him anymore after that. In fact, when she pestered Tojo, Loki would bark at her as a warning and she would leave him alone. Loki was definitely the dominant of the three dogs and Tojo and Rakka always deferred to him. He only ever used force once, other than that, he was what I consider a calm, benevolent leader, not a bully at all.

Like I said, I don't alpha roll because I think it's dangerous, at least for me. Some other people might feel confident doing it, but not me.

In reading Edie's links, this stands out to me because this is what I observe on a daily basis when my dogs play and roughhouse each other and other dogs.  I haven't alpha rolled dogs, so I can't really speak to that one way or the other.

The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the "dominance model" comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos.

For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary.

A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?

I will definitely agree with this part.  Coke and Kenya do this every day.  Both dogs also do this ritual amongst their dog friends, with whom we arrange play dates or have open play after training classes.  With Coke and Kenya, what usually happens is Coke runs up to Kenya and bows, he pesters her until she gives chase, she chases him around the yard or the house (preferably the yard!), when she "catches" him he turns around and flops himself on his back, she sometimes just stands there while he kicks at her or she puts her mouth on his neck.  Her jaw is open, I could reach both hands in and there'd still be room.  It's funny, my cats do the same thing.  One cat goes up to another and rolls over, then bats at the other cat until s/he decides to jump on and wrestle.  It's always the dog or cat on the bottom that instigates this play and voluntarily flops over.  There IS a definite pattern.  Coke rolls for Kenya, Samson rolls for Kenya, Coke rolls for Samson, etc.  The roles don't typically get reversed, but neither dog seems to care and it seems they have the most fun when they are doing long chases that end in this ritual and then some wrestling.