Alpha rolls and the dominance myth

Liesje

In reading Edie's links, this stands out to me because this is what I observe on a daily basis when my dogs play and roughhouse each other and other dogs.  I haven't alpha rolled dogs, so I can't really speak to that one way or the other.

The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the "dominance model" comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos.

For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary.

A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?

I will definitely agree with this part.  Coke and Kenya do this every day.  Both dogs also do this ritual amongst their dog friends, with whom we arrange play dates or have open play after training classes.  With Coke and Kenya, what usually happens is Coke runs up to Kenya and bows, he pesters her until she gives chase, she chases him around the yard or the house (preferably the yard!), when she "catches" him he turns around and flops himself on his back, she sometimes just stands there while he kicks at her or she puts her mouth on his neck.  Her jaw is open, I could reach both hands in and there'd still be room.  It's funny, my cats do the same thing.  One cat goes up to another and rolls over, then bats at the other cat until s/he decides to jump on and wrestle.  It's always the dog or cat on the bottom that instigates this play and voluntarily flops over.  There IS a definite pattern.  Coke rolls for Kenya, Samson rolls for Kenya, Coke rolls for Samson, etc.  The roles don't typically get reversed, but neither dog seems to care and it seems they have the most fun when they are doing long chases that end in this ritual and then some wrestling. 

Is that a fact...........

rolenta

I can definitely say that in the example I gave, Rakka was NOT flopping onto her back willingly. Loki forcefully rolled her.

I've seen that a few times as well, it just doesn't seem as ritualistic as when they are all playing the submissive dogs are rolling as part of their play routine.  I think the "alpha roll" being addressed in the articles is a ritualistic thing, but dogs still forcible roll to correct each other like Loki and Rakka.  It sort of gets at why I don't like the term "alpha roll".  It seems to mean different things to different people and I've never really seen it clarified and defended.

Liesje

and she is not learning what it is I didn't like her doing, only that I have an angry voice and she thinks I'm wanting her to submit.

Actually thats wrong, its totally the opposite, she learns that what she is doing is wrong, she does not think you want her to submit, that behavior was her own decision, a dog is smarter than that, she knows what you mean 

If you dont like her doing that thats your choice, but doing it herself is not "alpha roll" simply because an alpha is not doing it, actually she is telling you that she respects you and i dont think is bad if she is letting you know  

My dog has only ever rolled over in submission once for me, and that was when she accidentally almost bit me. I did nothing; she did it on her own. I would hate to see her show that extreme amount of submission in response to something me or anyone else did to her. I don't believe it is an indicator of a dog that respects you. It's an indicator of a dog that's afraid of you. Penny has done it to other dogs, but I'm happy to trust her that she knows what she's doing with other dogs. They get to frighten her a lot worse than any human does, because she's not likely to misunderstand them.

Snownose, you've proved a lot in this thread after all. I don't play childish games of one-upmanship. However, for the record, all our dogs are fine with the 3 cats they share the house with, even Pyry, who just yesterday when I was home nearly killed his second baby blue-tongue lizard for the week. Fortunately I was able to rescue it from him before he did any permanent damage to the poor thing. Pyry has never shown any interest in chasing or killing cats, and although I'm not sure if I have any photos of them interacting, I think I have a video somewhere of Pyry and Jill playing peek-a-boo with the 2 younger cats that like to play rough and are happy to incorporate the dogs into their games if they are willing. Last week I'm told Pyry killed a mouse and a rabbit as well as the baby blue-tongue. If he got the chance, he'd kill my hare, who still lives there. No amount of rolling or leadership will change that in him, but he's been a cat-friendly dog all his life and it took zero work at all. As a puppy he used to sit on them.

Our third cat was taken from her mother and moved from house to house way too early. She has trouble adapting to new things. She has a cordial relationship with Penny, who was there when she arrived in the house, but does not like to interact with any of the other dogs (or cats) in the house. She will share a room with all of them, but doesn't seek to interact with. That is fine by us. We don't need them to interact. My point in all this is that prey-driven dogs can quite easily learn to tolerate and even be friendly towards cats (I've heard of basenjis living in harmony with cats!), but a rabbit is a whole different matter, as is a bird, or a reptile, or any other small mammal. No one in my family pats themselves on the back for getting dogs and cats to live in harmony. It's a way of life and always has been. But you can bet I picked my next breed VERY carefully to minimise chances of ending up with a dog that's fine with cats, but knows rabbits are prey.

And just because I don't understand what cats and dogs living in harmony has to do with alpha rolling doesn't make my dogs silly and stupid. How old are you, snownose??  

corvus

Pyry has never shown any interest in chasing or killing cats, and although I'm not sure if I have any photos of them interacting, I think I have a video somewhere of Pyry and Jill playing peek-a-boo with the 2 younger cats that like to play rough and are happy to incorporate the dogs into their games if they are willing.

Corvus,

You can use this picture if you want.  When we adopted this cat, Leo, we had no idea if he had been exposed to dogs other than the ones who chased him at our dog park.  Duffy, the puppy, had had no exposure to cats that we knew of.  This picture was taken within a week of bringing Leo inside.  No alpha rolls, no correction protocols, just two youngsters who liked each other.  Leo was about nine months old and Duffy was six months old.  P.S., they both have strong prey drives and regularly get mice, shrews, voles and bunnies.

Duffy and Leo Picture

I am inserting a link because I can't get the inserting a picture to work.

That'll do me, Golden!

Super cute. Most animals know when another animal wants to chase and kill them and when it's just curiousity. I also have a video somewhere of one of the kittens standing on Kit's cage and batting his nose through the bars. He was standing on his hind legs looking up at her, trying to touch noses, and she just kept whacking him. It was quite interesting that he wasn't the least bit nervous about a cat standing above him smacking his nose. Kit loves Penny (although she doesn't like him and snaps at him whenever he gets too close) and is even okay with Jill (although I'd never trust Jill with him - she loves to chase things, although not cats, as it happens), but should Pyry discover him he goes into panic mode. Whether animals get on or not is largely to do with their own personalities. Kit is a particularly bold (and spoilt rotten) hare, so he's happy to make friends with any animal that seems friendly, but he knows a dog that wants to eat him when he sees one. The 2 younger cats at home are both bold and confident and see dogs as potentially fun playmates, but the third doesn't like any new dog or cat that comes into the house (and was scared of the rabbits for a long time, too, until Kit gave up following her around and focused his cat fascination on the much more fun and interactive kittens). I still don't know what all of this has to do with alpha rolls, or even hard rescues, for that matter!

GoldenAC

You can use this picture if you want

Now that's a cute pic.

I see your cute pic.

and raise you two.

And these..

There ya go. A cute pic parade.

Oh man, all these people with dogs and cats interacting and living in harmony! Who'd've thought it, and with no alpha rolls, I'm told. And hey, I don't think any of them do much rescuing. Am I missing something? 

corvus

Oh man, all these people with dogs and cats interacting and living in harmony! Who'd've thought it, and with no alpha rolls, I'm told

When I had scruff and pinned Shadow before, and times when he would roll, it had nothing to do with cats. Primarily, it was jumping on guests and getting persnickety with another dog on our walks. The op, however, if I recall, has done so in response to cat chasing. And my point then was that the move was only achieving a physical hold, not necessarily solving the cat-chasing or providing the human with social status in the dog's mind. That even, perhaps, it was a non-event to the dog, simply a physical part of the go-round. But that I could see where sometimes, if the only way to restrain a dog was to scruff and pin and other methods had failed and danger was imminent, so be it. At least until other training or management techniques could take hold or be in place.

Until recently, I had three dogs and two cats living together (one of the dogs passed away). Rakka was introduced last and was constantly trying to kill Tojo the first week she was here. Also, she had never been around cats and just wanted to chase and kill them (if you think that's an exageration, you have no clue how prey-driven shikokus are, most "high drive" breeds are just precious in comparison).

Now, everyone lives together peacefully. No alpha rolls, dominant dog collars, or any nasty corrections, really. Just positive reinforcement.