Alpha rolls and the dominance myth

rolenta

Rakka was introduced last and was constantly trying to kill Tojo the first week she was here. Also, she had never been around cats and just wanted to chase and kill them (if you think that's an exageration, you have no clue how prey-driven shikokus are, most "high drive" breeds are just precious in comparison).

And exactly how with this accomplished?  Positive reinforcement and managing the environment (keeping separate) is a long process and in that process, the human is bound to make a mistake and then the animals meet. What is done then when in that situation?

I don't understand the last series of posts.  Are you all encouraging others that when a dog and cat meet and they don't know each other, you ignore the bad behavior (fighting) and give food treats when they both stop fighting for awhile, that is if both are still alive?

Actually, more important than my rewards/punishments was building a bond with her and getting her to accept and trust me as a leader. Leaders decide who fights, when, and over what. At this point, there's no fighting simply because I *say* there's no fighting. If the two of them get snarky over a resource, I tell them to knock it off and they accept that they can either be civil, or neither of them gets it. I control the resources, therefore, there's no point in fighting each other over them. If Tojo has a bone, it's because I say he has a bone and if Rakka wants it, she has to fight me, not Tojo.

I didn't achieve leadership status by alpha rolling, dominant dog collars, scruffing, or any other form of fighting with them. I just control the resources. NILIF. That's how it works with dogs. Leaders don't fight. They don't have to.

rolenta

Actually, more important than my rewards/punishments was building a bond with her and getting her to accept and trust me as a leader. Leaders decide who fights, when, and over what.

Thats nice to say but like everything else your leadership has to be proofed and tested with each and every new situation.  When the animals meet and the dog goes after the cat and even though you gave the dog a very confident sounding NILIF command or you have a roast beef in your pocket, and that fails, what do you do?

Glenda, nothing wrong with managing the environment but as I stated the human will make a mistake and the animals you have carefully managed will be in a new situation.  It may be ok and it may be not, what do you do when things go wrong?

rolenta

I just control the resources. NILIF. That's how it works with dogs. Leaders don't fight. They don't have to.

Amen, sister. As for my dog, I've seen him play with the neighbor cats that would jump over our fence, as well as playing with our own cat. A stranger cat, though, might be treated as a stranger dog. Something to be wary of or investigate until more info is known. Squirrels and mice, however, don't stand a chance. And he's not trying to eat them. He just plays too hard and they get squished. But in the house, play stops when I say, primarily because what I say is worth it.

My dog can eat a meal and still respond to treats. But even if I had to delay a meal or use part of the meal to achieve training, I would because I find it to be more effective. Yes, I would be using the dog's desire or need for food to achieve a goal. Is that natural, I don't know, but stopping him from chasing whatever prey or cat he wants is also not natural. In fact, any obedience move would not be natural for a wild canid but dogs are not wild. It's also physical easier on me, the bone-idle lazy human, to hand out a treat than it is to catch up with the dog.

Trying to pin a dog for chasing the cat, one's timing could be way off. By the time you get to the dog, their mind is not going to connect the scruff with chasing the cat. They might connect it with stay or recall. If they even view the scruff as a punishment, they would then feel punished for staying or recalling. Notice I said if. The dog, like any creature, defines what is punishing or rewarding. I know that statement ticks some people off but I can't help it. It's just there, whether we like it or not, feel in control or not. But, while I cannot decide or control what it is my dog likes, I can control access to it. I don't get to decide what is punishing to my dog (it turns out to be a tone of voice I used for stupid drivers) but I can control when and how I use that punishment, if ever or necessary. So, in a sense, what we do only matters by how the dog views it and how they respond to it. A dog can find something to be punishing and still not stop the behavior. Or it's punishing but not punishing enough. That may come from a strong drive to push past pain and hunger to complete the hunt.

Some hunting dogs, such as Dogos and even some lines of pit bulls were bred for tenacity. That is, when the encounter the prey, they hang on and stay engaged until commanded to release, no matter what happens. So, for them, even though the wounds incurred by fighting with the prey may hurt like the dickens, it is not a punishment but a hazard of duty. Dgriego's Dogo can run through brambles and not stop. It may indeed hurt him but he doesn't see it as a punishment, just an occupational hazard to put up with.

DPU

rolenta

Actually, more important than my rewards/punishments was building a bond with her and getting her to accept and trust me as a leader. Leaders decide who fights, when, and over what.

Thats nice to say but like everything else your leadership has to be proofed and tested with each and every new situation.  When the animals meet and the dog goes after the cat and even though you gave the dog a very confident sounding NILIF command or you have a roast beef in your pocket, and that fails, what do you do?

rolenta

A squirt with the water bottle or isolation, like I said in my other post.

The little dish washing soap container is not going to do you much with a dog that is on the attack.  And if its a very driven dog, are you prepared to use one of those super soakers in order to break off the attack?

DPU

I don't understand the last series of posts.  Are you all encouraging others that when a dog and cat meet and they don't know each other, you ignore the bad behavior (fighting) and give food treats when they both stop fighting for awhile, that is if both are still alive?

The last series of posts, and here I am assuming that you meant the picture posts, were in response to Snownoses's request for pictures of dogs and cats interacting, I guess to see if we had any or could prove that our dogs could interact nicely with cats.  We were having a bit of fun and showing our cute pics of dogs and cats.  In terms of a first meeting between a dog and a cat we would be careful.  I would assume that we would all manage the meeting and make sure that the two animals are ready to meet without fighting before they are allowed to do so.  I think management of the environment is key here, as in keeping the dogs apart until they are ready to meet. 

In my own case, my dogs have never shown bad behavior when meeting a cat for the first time.

In my world at least, there never is an attack because you just don't take those kinds of risks. If you are not sure how the dog is going to go with an animal, you have them on leash to make sure nothing happens. My rabbits share the house space, and their safety is paramount. I am never ever going to risk an attack on them because they will lose and will probably be killed. When I took Kit in and he was the size of a rat, I was very careful introducing him to Penny because I wasn't sure what she'd do. We'd chased hares in the past together.  I didn't let her in the room with him out of my hands until I was sure she wasn't going to hurt him, and we did it in small steps so I could watch her reaction and judge how things were going.

When he moved in with my parents, we started out with him in a cage and the dogs on leash so even if they somehow got free he'd still be safe. The plan from there was to let him out while they were still on leash, but they never graduated from on leash with him in a cage. We weren't confident they'd leave him alone, and after a while of working on it, it became clear we'd never be confident of Pyry and Pyry's presence was increasingly upsetting to Kit. From then on, my rule of thumb with Kit and Pyry has been 2 degrees of separation. A door and a cage or 2 closed doors between Pyry and Kit. Kit doesn't come out to have his run until Pyry is either outside or in bed in the laundry. Sometimes the 2 degrees of separation drops back to one for a few moments, but only because Kit has been there for nearly 2 years, now, and Pyry has formed habits that mean we don't have to watch him so closely. Still, 2 degrees of separation. That's the rule. There will never be an attack. Kit would be unlikely to survive it.

I don't think it's hard to tell whether a dog can be trusted around a smaller animal or not. They tell you what they think of small animals the moment you let them see and smell it. In Pyry's case, he was intensely interested and he tried to get at the rabbits. In Jill's case, she was curious, but not as intensely and she didn't dive for them the way Pyry does. Jill is worth pursuing it with and teaching, but Pyry is and always will be too dangerous. At least for my peace of mind. I don't take risks with my animals' lives. I would never ever rely on a previously administered alpha roll, or any other correction for that matter. The only thing I'm willing to rely on is the natural disposition of the dog.

But cats are better able to take care of themselves than hares and rabbits, and they're not prey until they run. A hare or rabbit is prey from the moment a dog smells them.
 

DPU

rolenta

A squirt with the water bottle or isolation, like I said in my other post.

The little dish washing soap container is not going to do you much with a dog that is on the attack.  And if its a very driven dog, are you prepared to use one of those super soakers in order to break off the attack?

Amen to that one

I dont think anybody here has to "fight" their dogs, a simply body block can do the trick, controlling the food makes me the leader? of course not

The female lions are not the leaders even when they are the ones that hunt for the pride, the male lion is the leader and he is just waiting for the food to be"served", it can be exactly the same with dogs, even if lions and dogs are not the same, its a good example that in mother nature the one that provide the food not necessarily is the leader
 

espencer

a simply body block can do the trick

It didn't work for me. I was just another obstacle to get around. But the supersoaker did give me a funny image to contemplate. Since Sibes are hygienic, Shadow pretty much stays clean and I just give him a wet cloth bath. I have done the shampoo and rinse in the past. And he didn't like it. I would grab his scruff and hold for the rinse, especially. If I let go, he would run off and spraying him with water would break him off of whatever he was getting into. So, yeah, the supersoaker might help. And I used to hear about people using a water hose to break up some dogs. It was considered a way to break them up without doing actual damage.

espencer

The female lions are not the leaders even when they are the ones that hunt for the pride, the male lion is the leader and he is just waiting for the food to be"served",

Not in the documentaries I have seen. In fact, if the male is still with the pride, he will often hunt. When he is not, then the female lion has to hunt, by necessity. And, at times, the mates hunt together, making it easier to bring down the big game.

In nature, specifically in a arctic wolf pack and in a gray wolf pack, the alpha tag denotes the breeding pair. An actual "pack" is a family unit of breeding pair and off-spring. There is no way I could be alpha of Shadow because I did not sire him. In the documentaries I have seen the only contention I have seen is between the alpha male and the alpha female and a third adult of either gender wanting to breed and they don't allow it and usually scare off the offender.

ron2

Since Sibes are hygienic, Shadow pretty much stays clean and I just give him a wet cloth bath.

I'm sure he stays very "clean" that way 

ron2

if the male is still with the pride, he will often hunt. When he is not, then the female lion has to hunt, by necessity. And, at times, the mates hunt together, making it easier to bring down the big game.

Not in the documentaries I have seen

ron2

In nature, specifically in a arctic wolf pack and in a gray wolf pack, the alpha tag denotes the breeding pair. An actual "pack" is a family unit of breeding pair and off-spring. There is no way I could be alpha of Shadow because I did not sire him. In the documentaries I have seen the only contention I have seen is between the alpha male and the alpha female and a third adult of either gender wanting to breed and they don't allow it and usually scare off the offender.

I thought you called the pack theories "outdated" before 

espencer

DPU

rolenta

A squirt with the water bottle or isolation, like I said in my other post.

The little dish washing soap container is not going to do you much with a dog that is on the attack.  And if its a very driven dog, are you prepared to use one of those super soakers in order to break off the attack?

 

Amen to that one

I dont think anybody here has to "fight" their dogs, a simply body block can do the trick, controlling the food makes me the leader? of course not

The female lions are not the leaders even when they are the ones that hunt for the pride, the male lion is the leader and he is just waiting for the food to be"served", it can be exactly the same with dogs, even if lions and dogs are not the same, its a good example that in mother nature the one that provide the food not necessarily is the leader
 

Aren't alpha wolves the ones that control the food in a wolf pack?  The pack hunts as a group, and the wolves eat according to rank.  If a lesser wolf tries to eat without permission, he faces consequences.  That sounds like higher ranking animals controlling food to me.... 

Since lions were brought in as an example, let's look at horses.  If you want to know the pecking order in a group of horses, put them in a dry lot and throw some hay out.  The higher ranking members eat first and can have any hay pile they want--anyone lower than them had better get out of the way.  This also goes for water and position at the gate (who goes in first to eat dinner) at feeding time. 

I'm a bit confused about how training dogs and cats to coexist has anything to do with alpha rolling.....

When we got Sally we knew NOTHING about dogs.  We had to google it to teach her to sit and house train her.  She has a high prey drive and will generally chase pretty much anything that moves.  When we got her she was a year old, 48 lbs, had no house training, was most likely never in a house before we got her, knew no commands, was afraid of the leash, etc.  We brought her into a *small* one bedroom apartment with 2 adult cats who had never been around dogs and immediately hated her.  In addition, they were declawed in the front and therefore had no way to defend themselves.  

After we introduced them we just watched everyone closely and handled interactions on a case by case basis.  It did not take her long to figure out that if she went after a cat she was verbally corrected, and if she ignored the verbal correction she was "body blocked" to get her focus off the cat and back onto us.  As we got more knowledgeable we incorporated "leave it" and praised her for compliance (and she is a dog whose focus can be very hard to break one she has set her mind to something).   As long as the interaction did not involve chasing or excessive cat harassment, we let them handle it largely themselves.  She now lives very peacefully with our cats.  One of the cats still dislikes Sally and will occasionally attack her (no front claws and she doesn't use her teeth, but does thwap Sally and make angry cat noises), and Sally's response is to completely ignore this behavior--she just goes about her business and acts like nothing happened.  The other cat is now friends with Sally--Sally grooms her and they will occasionally lay together.  not only had I not even heard of an alpha roll at the time, but if I had I certainly would not have even thought of using it for a second--every single source I found that discussed it (and no, not all of them were positive only sources) went on and on about how dangerous it was and how it should never be used by anyone but a professional.