Alpha rolls and the dominance myth

The husband of one of my supervisors spent a few years working on lions. He says they're just big pu$$y cats. The thing with lions is the males and the females actually keep out of each other's business for the most part. Lions see off other males and any other animal that might be a threat, and lionesses see off intruding lionesses. If lionesses get into a massive brawl with a neighbouring pride, the lion (lions, usually, because a single lion can't hold territory on his own with all those brothers out there taking over lion prides together) stays well clear of it, even if his lionesses are getting badly hurt. And after watching Big Cat Diary religiously, I can comfortably say when it comes to cubs, it's the lionesses that are calling the shots, at least until another lion takes over the pride and sets about killing all the current babies, which is standard lion practice. I can't say for sure, but I suspect that when all is said and done, lionesses don't trust their lions very much. They only last long enough to see one round of cubs to maturity before they get kicked out by a new lion co-op anyway. And plus, when lionesses kill something, lions sometimes come and comandeer the kill. You can't tell me lionesses are totally okay with that. They don't understand bargains. I think you'd probably find that lions and lionesses don't care so much about hierarchy at the dinner table when there's loads of food around, but when food is scarce, suddenly it's a different ball game.

I think any claim that a male mammal is dominant over a female, or leads a female, is dubious based purely on the fact that females have the expensive gamete and it's a lot easier to father kiddies if she chooses to co-operate. With the exception of sex-role reversed species. Which lions and dogs most certainly are not. In the words of one of my other supervisors "Sperm is very cheap. Why, I've produced a milion of them just while we've been sitting here and it took hardly any effort at all." Sorry guys, nothing personal, but that's how the world is. Girls have expensive gametes so they're the ones that actually plan what they're going to do with them . 

Good posts, Sally.  

About males and females ...

I'd read that ridgebacks tend towards a matriarchal society. The females rule the roost. After spending yesterday at a ridgeback gathering, I have to say there is something to that! It was the females, not the males, who were grumbly about who was in charge. The males were big and goofy, sometimes a little pushy but the women folk meant business! There had to have been at least 30 dogs, from 5 months to 14 years, with multiple intact males and females.

It was a very different experience from my dog park time, in which males are usually the cause of any conflict.  

Second of all, I don't break up fights with a squirt bottle, I break up fights by pulling the dogs apart in a safe way (by their back legs with two people). Of course, I've only ever had one dog fight that needed to be broken up that way. In most cases, my voice was enough. Why? Because I didn't let the dogs interact when I thought there was going to be a fight! I mean, really, is that so hard? If you can't control a dog's environment, then don't take the dog into your home. The squirt bottle is a reminder when one dog gets snarky. It's preventative

Also, I think it's funny that the response to my experience introducing Rakka and Tojo is, "How on earth did you do that?!" Then I explain how and am told that that method won't work. Well... it did. Can't argue with results. I just got back from an off-leash romp with the pups and Tojo and Rakka were sticking together like glue, playing and exploring together.

rolenta

First of all, I have no idea why we're talking about the behaviour of lions. We're not discussing lions. Dogs are not lions. What lions do is compeltely irrelavent.

.....

espencer

the male lion is the leader and he is just waiting for the food to be"served", it can be exactly the same with dogs, even if lions and dogs are not the same, its a good example that in mother nature the one that provide the food not necessarily is the leader
 

To the next one: 

sillysally

Aren't alpha wolves the ones that control the food in a wolf pack?  The pack hunts as a group, and the wolves eat according to rank.  If a lesser wolf tries to eat without permission, he faces consequences.  That sounds like higher ranking animals controlling food to me.... 

The entire pack may be responsible for bringing home the kill, but the alpha eats first and controls who eats in what order. Besides, NILIF is about so much more than just food. It's about ALL resources.

rolenta

The entire pack may be responsible for bringing home the kill, but the alpha eats first and controls who eats in what order. Besides, NILIF is about so much more than just food. It's about ALL resources

And I would propose that it doesn't matter what wild packs do. Humans can create a change and a stability in the dog with NILIF.

ron2

rolenta

The entire pack may be responsible for bringing home the kill, but the alpha eats first and controls who eats in what order. Besides, NILIF is about so much more than just food. It's about ALL resources

And I would propose that it doesn't matter what wild packs do. Humans can create a change and a stability in the dog with NILIF.

I tend to agree with this.  Every dog that is kept as a pet, unless they have hunting skills (which mine do not) or a drivers license (which mine do not) is going to have to have the human actually go out and buy the food for them.  It is what happens after the food makes it home that is the important part, IMHO.....  

espencer

DPU

rolenta

A squirt with the water bottle or isolation, like I said in my other post.

The little dish washing soap container is not going to do you much with a dog that is on the attack.  And if its a very driven dog, are you prepared to use one of those super soakers in order to break off the attack?

 

Amen to that one

I dont think anybody here has to "fight" their dogs, a simply body block can do the trick, controlling the food makes me the leader? of course not

The female lions are not the leaders even when they are the ones that hunt for the pride, the male lion is the leader and he is just waiting for the food to be"served", it can be exactly the same with dogs, even if lions and dogs are not the same, its a good example that in mother nature the one that provide the food not necessarily is the leader
 

That's true, but it's also assuming that food is the only resource when it clearly is not.  I don't know if DPU's argument always holds water either, since it's just as possible for humans to make errors when they are using other training techniques.  If you reinforce the wrong thing, correct the wrong thing, manage incorrectly, you are still committing a human error that could lead to a bad situation.  But, you do that every time you get in your car, too.  Most of the time, you accelerate at the right time, you stop at the right time.  But, there's always the chance that your foot hits the gas instead of the brake.  IMO, that should not stop you from driving. 

Fact is, even with a very well trained dog that perceives you as a leader, you have about 2-3 seconds flat to utter "leave it" before they are in full predatory mode, so you had better make sure that behavior is fluent long before you raise your criteria from leaving biscuits alone on the floor to adding a cat in a crate, to making the dog "leave" an uncrated cat that is free to move.  This is training that is done in incremental stages and proofed at each stage.  You don't just one day stick the dog in a room with a cat and expect that you can make him break off the chase if chooses to engage in it. 

rolenta

The entire pack may be responsible for bringing home the kill, but the alpha eats first and controls who eats in what order.

This is a myth. It's simply not true. First of all "alpha" is only a designation for who gets to breed. In other words it's relevant only to sexual behaviors, which are controlled by the reproductive instinct, and has nothing to do with social instincts or social behaviors. Secondly, the mama and papa wolf do NOT always eat first. Very often they let their offspring have their fill before they eat. And finally, no one member of the pack controls who eats in what order. That sort of thing may be seen in captive wolves, but not in real, wild wolf packs.

You have to remember that most of the information we've been given about pack social structure, hierarchy, dominance, etc., comes from observations made of captive groups of animals who aren't real, organic packs. In many cases most members of the group didn't even know each other before they were thrown together and expected to act like a pack. A real pack hunts together. They don't engage in needless conflict the way captive wolves will. The behavior of captive wolves is the result of captivity stress. A wild wolf's social instincts are geared for group harmony and cooperation while hunting. Any wild wolf who tried to control everyone else's behavior would be quickly ostracized.

Source A :: Source B

LCK 

Lee Charles Kelley

You have to remember that most of the information we've been given about pack social structure, hierarchy, dominance, etc., comes from observations made of captive groups of animals who aren't real, organic packs. In many cases most members of the group didn't even know each other before they were thrown together and expected to act like a pack. A real pack hunts together. They don't engage in needless conflict the way captive wolves will. Captive wolves act more on captivity stress than on a wolf's normal instincts for group harmony.

Since you are attempting to bridge the wolf in the wild to the domestic dog, isn't the study of captive groups of animals more relevant to the average JQP dog owner since it somewhat resembles the house pet's situation?

DPU

Since you are attempting to bridge the wolf in the wild to the domestic dog, isn't the study of captive groups of animals more relevant to the average JQP dog owner since it somewhat resembles the house pet's situation

And I'm going to suggest that studying a group of captive wolves is not like studying the behavior of domestic dogs. Domestic dogs have an affinity for Man and have had that for 100,000 years or more, making them distinctly different than wolves, who steer clear of humans if they can help it. Also, the wolves are into solving their own problems and dogs take cues from humans. I would also point out, ala LCK, that wolves have different brain size and function than dogs. Also, domestic dogs have great access to the human household than a wild wolf would. Also, studying a group of wolves from different packs artificially put together is unnatural. Left alone, they would choose to stay away from most other packs, each keeping to their own hunting grounds.

OTOH, wolves and dogs are both canids, both social creatures, both are more prone to get along than get it on.

 Replying to no one in particular.

I use them, don't have a problem calling myself or acting as alpha, leader, boss, head b!tch, whatever.  My kids call me a drill sargeant mom and other parents did as well, so it's my style and I'm comfortable with it.  I used the alpha roll technique alot with my airedale between age 16 weeks and 3 years and then had to barely use it after his terrible teen stage.  I've used it a handful of times on my present dogs.  They're a different, less stubborn breed and I find they don't need the forceful message as much as my airedale did.  I'm completely comfortable with my decision and choice, especially after having my psychology major son tell me that studies have shown a strong negative response has a longer lasting effect than many positive reinforcers.  I use strong negative responses for strong negative infractions (growling at family, nipping, doing something dangerous like darting towards traffic type things) and positive for the behavior I want to encourage or train. 

Works for me, to each his own.  I guess I just don't understand the aversion to punishment.  I punish my kids for bad behavior and my dogs as well.   If I break the rules or behave badly in society, I'm punished by bosses and law enforcement.  Not distracted and given cookies. 

BCMixs

Works for me, to each his own.  I guess I just don't understand the aversion to punishment.  I punish my kids for bad behavior and my dogs as well.   If I break the rules or behave badly in society, I'm punished by bosses and law enforcement.  Not distracted and given cookies

LMAO!!! that made my day, it really did

my family is all law enforcement and hell NO we dont give out cookies to prevent bad behaviour!  thats called a BRIBE!

no, i'm with you on this.... i dont have a problem your techniques, and use them on my own dogs when there is a need. my belief is "Make the wrong thing hard to do, and right thing easier" 

i dont believe there is only one way to train an animal, but someone is ALWAYS going to disagree with you. and some animals work better with some methods than with others. a headstrong dominating breed needs a specific method of handling versus say a softer, more reasonable breed.

a shepherd i rescued two years ago was "abused" by a man who tried to train him with the same methods he used on his rotti and pit bulls. the poor shepherd was shell shocked, shy, and a nervous wreck.

i think it depends a lot on that individual dog's personality. and i do believe you should try the nicest method possible before moving on to a more stern response.

BCMixs

 Replying to no one in particular.

 

I use them, don't have a problem calling myself or acting as alpha, leader, boss, head b!tch, whatever.  My kids call me a drill sargeant mom and other parents did as well, so it's my style and I'm comfortable with it.  I used the alpha roll technique alot with my airedale between age 16 weeks and 3 years and then had to barely use it after his terrible teen stage.  I've used it a handful of times on my present dogs.  They're a different, less stubborn breed and I find they don't need the forceful message as much as my airedale did.  I'm completely comfortable with my decision and choice, especially after having my psychology major son tell me that studies have shown a strong negative response has a longer lasting effect than many positive reinforcers.  I use strong negative responses for strong negative infractions (growling at family, nipping, doing something dangerous like darting towards traffic type things) and positive for the behavior I want to encourage or train. 

Works for me, to each his own.  I guess I just don't understand the aversion to punishment.  I punish my kids for bad behavior and my dogs as well.   If I break the rules or behave badly in society, I'm punished by bosses and law enforcement.  Not distracted and given cookies. 

If I were you, I'd suggest that your psych major son also read the studies that show the difference between laissez faire parents, assertive parents and authoritarian parents, which is what you describe yourself as.  (As I recall from my undergraduate days, such studies show that assertive, non-violent parents raise the most successful kids.)  Personally, I don't think that you need use physically harsh punishment on either species if you start from square one training assertively, but nicely.  And, no I don't think that positive reinforcement training need be "laissez faire" - I am still an assertive trainer, despite my lack of reliance on physical penalties.  If capital punishment was a deterrent to murder, there would be no murderers in Texas.  But, it isn't, and all that needs to happen to you to have you change your mind about alpha rolls is to meet up with a dog that won't take your crap.  It's easy to bully kids into behaving, too, but IMO the loss of a favorite privilege or having to shut the TV off is better than a slap.  BTW, you forgot that your boss, if you do right, continues to pay you (think of it as green cookies.)  It's not that I have that much of an aversion to punishment, although I see it overused on a daily basis with dogs.  I simply have an aversion to physical violence and unfair punishment. 

DumDog- LOL!  It's a combo of the army brat and criminal justice major in me!

SpiritDogs-
Well, my psych major son was referring to ANIMAL studies, since that's the topic at hand.  I made no recommendation to anyone about what to do and don't recommend alpha rolls to people and dogs I cannot see.  I do however advocate the proper use of alpha rolls in situations where the person who is going to use them can be taught their proper use by someone responsible and with a dog that is controllable.  I was taught their proper use by an experienced terrier breeder and began using them on a terrier at a young age and in the proper way so he accepted them without question.  There are many different things that people call "alpha rolls" and without physically being present to see what is done, it's hard to know whether it's appropriate or over the top, and yes, in the wrong hands or with the wrong dog, you can get yourself into a bad situation fast.  But to say they have no place with any dog is wrong in my opinion.  That's like saying psychotherapy will work with any criminal to make them an upstanding moral member of society.  There is no one size fits all, in criminal justice or dog training.  It depends on who you're dealing with.

When I referenced punishment, I never used the word physical as an adjective in that sentence.  Nor did I represent myself as a violent parent, drill sargeants command respect and demand obedience, they do not physically assault to get it.  If you knew me, which you don't, so I'll let it pass, you'd know that I come from a severely physically violent childhood and that insinuation is pretty insulting.

Physical restraint can be a punishment (like on a toddler in a tantrum) and not be abuse.  If you're interested, the number of times I used physical spankings on my kids can be counted on 3 fingers.  But they still call me the Queen of Discipline because I did and do come up with uniquely unpleasant punishments for their bad behavior. Making my airedale lay on his side until the boss (me) let him up was one of the ways his bad behavior was dealt with, not a fun position or way to spend his time and was an effective deterrent to his bad behavior and additionally a way to establish my role with him as the boss and the final say as to his behavior.  Same with my kids.  I'm completely comfortable with it. 

Now drop and give me 20!