Alpha rolls and the dominance myth

BCMixs

I was taught their proper use by an experienced terrier breeder and began using them on a terrier at a young age and in the proper way so he accepted them without question. 

THEM????  I really found it odd that in your previous post you indicated you use the alpha roll on one dog over a 3 year period.  I was willing to overlook that as an exaggeration and inexperience but then there is the above quote.  I thought the alpha roll was equivalent to 'bringing out the big guns', reserved for the most serious and volatile situations.  By using the technique so many times, the punishment becomes diluted and either you are viewed by the dog as just a bully or it becomes a game to the dog.  And with my clairvoyent abiity (proven in another thread) I suspect the latter because of the number of times you did it. 

spiritdogs

If capital punishment was a deterrent to murder, there would be no murderers in Texas

Excellent post, as usual, SD. I live in Texas, thought by some to be the capital punishment center of the world. And I believe in capital punishment but not as a deterrent. As a safety measure for the rest of society. Some people should be gotten rid of the way one steps on a cockroach or chops the head off a rattlesnake. You don't worry about the motivations of the killer or how tough their childhood was. Personal responsibility is personal responsibility and you pay the price. If I were a judge, I would hang them high. Ron White, the comedian, said it best. "While some states are trying to do away with the death penalty, Texas is putting in an express lane."

But I harbor no illusions. Punishment, especially corporal or positve punishment has a limited effect. Not to go to the extremes, per se, but how hard is too hard and what is affected? I used scruffs and pins on Shadow and he thought it was play. So, I have had better results "distracting him with a treat." I would also suggest, based on my limited experience, that people who have used alpha rolls or scruffs and pins on dogs have had the fortune to have dogs that will put up with it. Either as a non-event condition of life, a behavior marker, or, in my case, as play, which is a reinforcer.

I would also beg to differ with the studies. At least from a human perspective. Punishment does not always work the way a person thinks it will. Trust me, I know something about punishment.

That's not to say that some positive punishment can't be effective. Negative punishment can also be effective. And, again, I am for capital punishment but not as a deterrent against bad behavior but as a tool to rid the world of a bad guy.

DPU

THEM????  I really found it odd that in your previous post you indicated you use the alpha roll on one dog over a 3 year period.  I was willing to overlook that as an exaggeration and inexperience but then there is the above quote.  I thought the alpha roll was equivalent to 'bringing out the big guns', reserved for the most serious and volatile situations.  By using the technique so many times, the punishment becomes diluted and either you are viewed by the dog as just a bully or it becomes a game to the dog.  And with my clairvoyent abiity (proven in another thread) I suspect the latter because of the number of times you did it. 

*sigh* As I said, without being there, you don't know *what* I was doing or referring to or how often during that period it occurred.  And as I also said, there are alot of very different techniques that people refer to as "alpha rolls".  In my case, the breeder called it dominance down, but it was very similar to what I've seen Cesar doing on DW, so I don't have a problem with the semantics.  It basically involved us (all members of the family, including a 5 year old with adult supervision and assistance) placing the dog into a lying position with feet pointed away from us, us on our knees and a hand on his jawline and the other on his shoulder and making him remain in a lying position with his head down on the floor.  Whenever we wanted or if he misbehaved.  We used it so much during that period as a way to teach him to accept the position and that we had control of when he had to assume it.  We had to physically put him into it only during the first ~6 mos. because after that, when we said "Down" in a certain tone, he knew exactly what we wanted.  Sometimes it was to clip nails, sometimes because he was being a brat, sometimes if he was getting really naughty and disobeying or displaying behavior that indicated "No! I'm not listening to you, I'm going to growl and bark and run away!" he'd be put into the down, told "Easy" to calm down and the controlling nature of the down slowly transitioned into something pleasant like a massage to calm him down and not make it a confrontational, aggressive or angry thing but a control thing.  It was a punishment and a control and a tool, based on our attitude while applying it and what caused it to occur.  He wasn't crazy about nail clips, but by use of this technique, knew that he must tolerate them.  He also had a habit of jumping to greet.  Through the use of this technique and others, my 5 year old daughter was able to "Down" him almost immediately if his 2 front feet started to leave the floor when her friends came over.  Why?  Because he knew that every single member of the family had the right and the position to make him do what they wanted him to.  It also kept a bratty stage from becoming an unmanageable or dangerous stage where he thought certain things were okay because, due to his stubborn nature and breed, he was going to do them no matter what.  His was very much a "You and what army?" breed.

Now depending on your personal definition, this may or may not fit your idea of what an "alpha roll" is or whether it's an appropriate training/discipline technique or not.  As I said in my original post, to each his own.  Your assumptions as to our outcome or relationship with this particular dog notwithstanding, I can tell you he was controlled and walked by a 5 year old (with adult supervision), her friends could come and visit w/o being knocked down or inappropriately sniffed, anyone could take food right out of his mouth and he knew his place.  Between this move and NILIF, we had a well-behaved, under control TERRIER who was not a menace to the neighborhood or it's residents and was a wonderful (after the terrible teens) member of the family.  Could we have achieved these same results with nothing but positive reinforcement?  Possibly.  Although I can't imagine what the positive reinforcement method is with a dog that's nipping or growling over food.  I chose to follow the instructions of his breeder, who had way more dog experience in general and specifically more terrier experience than I.  I've seen way too many average joe dog owners (which I consider myself to be, not a trainer, not a breeder) acquire a strong-willed breed and can't understand why the dog doesn't respect them and won't do what they want.  For me, this move has worked to establish my authority over a particular dog and to send the message that a completely and totally unacceptable behavior comes with being forced to assume this position until I say when.  The behavior tends not to be repeated, it's a bummer to lie on your side for a minute or 3 when you're a dog.

I only think of it as bringing out the big guns in that it's the most submissive position a dog could be forced to be in.  And *again* I do not recommend it to invisible people over the internet with dogs I don't know.  It's something that *IF* (big, gigantic, IF) you're going to use, you should absolutely be taught to do it by an experienced trainer and with a dog that you know is not at risk for biting your friggin face off.  If you have an aggressive dog that may bite, you should be working with a professional and a confrontational move like this one is probably going to make things worse if applied incorrectly.  But, I DO use it, I HAVE used it, and WILL CONTINUE to use it if necessary.

Good luck with that clairvoyant thing.   

Perhaps the best thing is to first explain what you mean when you say alpha roll and then go from there with the discussion.  There are way too many different maneuvers that are referred to as “alpha rolls”, “dominance down”, etc. to have an intelligent debate without people getting the wrong impression or assuming what others are doing and inevitably being wrong.  For instance, here are several different techniques, all described as “dominance down” or "alpha roll" but as you can see by their descriptions, they are very different things:

From http://www.jonsplace.org/rot/rotties.htm

Submission & Dominance  The Dominance Down teaches the dog his place in the "pack." These are stubborn dogs and the point needs to be made in a way HE will understand. Hitting a Rottie won't teach him anything except how to chomp you when you least expect it. Take a little time to understand the "pack" order dogs use naturally, and you can use his own instincts to get him to behave perfectly - with very little effort on your part (once the housebreaking is done ;).
     Routine dominance downs must begin when the dog is a little pup - because he won't be little very long.

   1. Kneel beside the dog, reach under his chest and forward, and grasp his front paw opposite you
   2. Pull that paw toward you (under him) firmly while using your weight to push (roll) him over, so he has to "shoulder-roll" down onto the floor and you land (gently) on top of him
   3. Finish by rolling him all the way onto his back and straddling his chest/stomach
   4. Reach down and firmly (but not choking) grasp the skin over his throat. Lean down and look him in the eyes
   5. If he doesn't look away or shut his eyes, bounce his head against the floor lightly a few times with the hand you have on his throat, using the loose skin there. He'll "submit"
   6. You'll know he has submitted when he refuses to make eye contact with you and his paws go limp, even though his torso may be quite rigid. Be careful not to grab his throat itself - just the skin over it

This procedure - the "Dominance Down" - will become a a routine thing for your dog if you do it just twice a day throughout his puppyhood. Do it once in awhile after he is grown as well. Apply this any time he disobeys and a simple correction doesn't get him back in line. He will come to accept this as your right to do to him.
     This is not a punishment!. This is how wild dogs in a pack establish dominance among each other so that no real fights have to take place. It is the canine way of keeping the peace - establishing who is boss before a fight occurs. This establishes and maintains a strict social structure. Our male does this to our female every time my wife gets home from work during the week. It's a ritual he never fails to do - and our dogs have never been in a real fight with each other.
      My wife had problems getting Miss Molly to break challenging eye contact during Dominance Downs. Linda finally wrapped her teeth around Miss Molly's throat and bit down lightly. Miss Molly recognized that signal all right, and has given my wife no more challenging looks. Submission is better than possibly getting your throat ripped out by a crazy housewife.

From http://www.geocities.com/cockercondo/number.html:

It seems only common sense, then, to use one of the behaviors from the Dominance List to communicate to the dog that his place is beneath that of all the humans in the household. Doing that will achieve two objectives. It will let the dog know who's the boss and it will give the dog a number of his own (remember the unfortunate German Shepherd Dog that didn't have a number?)

Making the dog lay down on its side with its head and hips touching the floor, is an ideal way of communicating to the dog what his postion is in the pack. We call this exercise the "Dominance Down."

The easiest way to accomplish a "Dominance Down" is to get down on your knees. Have the dog stand sideways in front of you. Place both your arms over the dog's back. Now, take your two hands and reach over and through the center of the dog's body so that you can take his inside front leg in one hand and his inside back leg in the other hand.

Grasping both front and rear legs (the ones next to your body), firmly, but gently, pull the dog close to you and slide him down the front of your thighs until he comes to rest on the floor in front of you with his legs facing away from your body.

Next, take the hand that was holding his front leg and place it over his neck. The hand that was holding the rear leg now rests over his top, or outermost, hip. Slowly stroke the groin area inside the top hip and you'll feel him begin to relax The dog may even lift his topmost leg which is a further sign of submission to you.

It is important when placing the dog on his side to manipulate him smoothly and firmly. Do not slam or throw the dog down -- you could hurt him. Do not be hesitant when you begin -- this gives the dog time to resist you. Simply grasp his legs and, in one fluid motion, lower him to the prone position in front of you. Use your upper thighs as a slide to ease the dog to the floor -- gravity will lower him down.

From: http://www.decacs.com/decacs_ae/raisingeskies.htm

DOMINANCE DOWN EXERCISE

Trainers and behaviorists suggest incorporating Dominance exercises into day-to-day living so the puppy understands its place in the family. The family is, after all replacing the puppy's natural pack.

Many trainers advocate a dominance-down exercise in which the puppy is gently but firmly laid on its side, restrained by one hand on the scruff of the neck and one hand on the body. Do not slam or throw the pup to the ground -- the idea is not to hurt or terrorize the pup. If the puppy resists, give a verbal correction such as a deep-throated growl or say firmly "That's enough!" Do not scream and yell; the pup will not understand, and you will only increase its panic. Once the puppy relaxes, gently stroke its stomach or give a gentle body massage. Teach the puppy to allow you to handle its body. Run your hands all over the pup and check its ears, feet, toenails and teeth. Check for fleas, ticks, burrs, foxtails and lumps, bumps and scrapes.

When the puppy no longer fights or squirms and has relaxed under your hands, calmly pat its side, say "okay," and let the puppy get up. The puppy should view this exercise as nothing out of the ordinary. The dominance down establish the puppy's place in the family. It calms an overly excited puppy, and it allows you to teach the puppy to let you handle and care for its body, making grooming and veterinary care easier on everyone,

From: http://www.westieclubamerica.com/behavior/alpha.html

THE ALPHA ROLL:

    Note: The alpha roll should be the "least used" of all the alpha signals. In most cases you never use this or if you do, it is on a very infrequent basis. This is ONLY intended as an enhancement, when necessary. Consider that in the dog/dog world, the pack leader does not spend all day, every day "rolling over and pinning" all the dogs in their pack. They communicate they are the alpha/pack leader by ALL the other pack signals they give all day long. Consequently, all of the other aspects discussed in this article are your FOUNDATION and the signals you will want to focus on to communicate you are the alpha/pack leader and your pack is strong, stable, and secure.

When executed properly, the 'alpha roll' is an effective tool for reinforcing your Alpha position. Dogs reinforce their position over other dogs by rolling the other dogs onto their backs and pinning them there for a short time. Also, dogs use this approach to correct/reprimand unacceptable pack manners. Therefore, when we replicate these actions with the dogs...it has the same effect. It sends the same message.

If your dog displays or engages in inappropriate behavior, you can roll them over on their back and hold them there for a short period of time. This procedure is best served with little or no fanfare. Just pick the dog up, flip it gently, and calmly place them on their back. For larger dogs, you would need to have the dog go down and roll them over onto their back. I do NOT advocate using any roughness or harshness when using the Alpha Roll. Consider that your strength as pack leader is enhanced by your firm control of situation....NOT by being 'out of control'.

Once the dog is on their back, hold them there until they 'give/submit'. They will indicate this by 'relaxing' their body. Often times (especially at first), the dogs will resist being placed in this 'most submissive' of all positions. They may yelp, bark, curl lip, paw frantically, squirm with all their might, etc. Therefore, be sure to have a firm hold on your dog. You may want to wear long sleeve shirts the first several times you do this to protect your arms from the frantic pawing and squirming. Not all dogs will do this, many will submit almost immediately.

You do NOT want to verbally reprimand your dog during this process. In fact, I prefer to say nothing during the entire Alpha Roll process. Actions speak louder than words. You are placing the dogs in the most submissive and vulnerable of all positions. The dogs will naturally be emotionally stressed and physically vulnerable. DO NOT increase their anxiety by verbally reprimanding them or being physically harsh with them.

Once on their back, you hold the dog by placing your hand on their chest. Having your fingers splayed open will give you the most body coverage and physical control. Also, the open hand and splayed fingers helps disperse the pressure evenly across their chest. Be careful to ONLY hold the dog with enough pressure to keep them in the alpha position. You do NOT want to use excessive pressure/force that could cause pain/discomfort or inhibit their ability to breathe.

NOTE: IF (and, only IF) necessary, you can increase your Alpha 'message' in a relatively subtle.... but meaningful manner. When your fingers are splayed across the chest, you can use the first two fingers in a 'pincer' like manner on the neck. This simulates a dog's mouth on their neck and sends a very powerful message!!!! If you do this, DO NOT press on the neck at all. The mere presence of your fingers in the neck area is all that is needed.

The dog will eventually 'give/submit'. Their body muscles will relax and they will stop squirming. Further, the dogs may lay their head straight back or turn their head to the side. Either of these positions is 'dog speak' for FULLY giving their life into your hands!!!! When dogs are going to kill another dog or adversary, they always go for the neck. Consequently, when the dog 'offers you' their neck....they are unconditionally giving their life to you. They know they will only be allowed to live through the 'good graces' of their alpha. When you get any indication of the dog 'giving/submitting' to you, you will want to release them almost immediately. You will have made your point, they will understand what has happened. At this point, the worst thing you could do is OVERDO it!!! When the dogs 'give/submit', if you do not release them...they will many times start to struggle again. This is the survival instinct. I am alive, maybe I can get away from this situation. You will have 'missed' your opportunity to make the impact you wanted have on the dog.

To release your dog, just remove your hand from their chest. Do not say anything or roll them over...nothing. Just remove your hand, stand up, and walk away. Understand that the alpha roll process should END the moment you remove your hand. Also, know that within a couple of minutes, you can interact with your dog, play, whatever as if nothing has occurred.

While I have mentioned using the alpha roll when the dogs exhibit or engage in inappropriate behaviors, I also like to do this at random times for no particular reason. For example, every once in a while...when playing with the dog, do the alpha roll, release them, & resume playing as if nothing has occurred. There are some additional Alpha reinforcers you may chose to use from time to time. These can be helpful in cases of extreme dominance or over assertive dogs.

 ETA: FOR CLARITY, I AM NEITHER SUGGESTING OR ENDORSING ANY OF THESE TECHNIQUES.  THEY ARE INCLUDED IN THE DISCUSSION TO SHOW HOW VERY DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES CAN BE CALLED AN ALPHA ROLL OR DOMINANCE DOWN AND CAN LEAD TO CONFUSION AND MISTAKEN ASSUMPTIONS.

the times i've had to use them on Kaydee were for when she got waaaaaaaay too excited about something - she's a working bulldog... doesnt take much - for example, no matter what i tried when i first got her she would love the guests to death. if i told her sit/down she would sit down and love them to death. i didnt want to remove her from the room because thats not training.. thats out of sight/out of mind and not what i wanted to achieve. what good is a guard dog if you have to lock them in a crate or the bedroom? it didnt take her long to figure out if she didnt settle down she would get "rolled" which to her was a doggy-time out. now when we have guests she sits at a distance and licks the air and beats my leg with her tail and does a little happy feet dance.

for me its more of a "settle down" tactic like you would use on a kid.... i have always found the threat "If you dont settle down i'm gonna beat your @$$" to be a temporary fix for hyper kids. i hear that stupid phrase nearly every day when my cousin comes to my house to pick up her kids after school. they're both 3 and 4, hyper as grass hoppers.... she'll make the threats all day long and they'll cool it for a second. the worst thing i have done to them is a time out. they would RATHER have a beating than sit still for ten minutes. i have seen dogs react the same way believe it or not... with OTHER DOGS... i've noticed with some dogs they will annoy the crap out of another dog until said other dog snarls and snaps at them. the annoying one will run away and come darting back for more like its a game. even if the annoying dog gets a nip they still come back for more. if someone doesnt make that aggravating jerk of a dog settle down there will be a fight. REAL corporal punishment.

so anyway... alpha = time out for me. i dont view it as a body slamming choke hold maneuver like a cop would use on a drunk and unruly citizen- i was in a civilian training class once that was taught by the local sheriffs department... i got to be the one they demonstrated on (gently of course, i am rather small, but game!) when this cop put me down on the ground i wasnt going anywhere... and i'm pretty nimble
the only time i ever had to get nearly that tough with Kaydee was when she caught one of my ducks.... i was trying to catch it to put it in another pen and she thought she would help out but i didnt ask for her help. ((this stupid duck was quacking all over the yard, walking past her and she ignored it.... until she saw me go after it. something i hadnt counted on!!!! and i should have known better..but that was my first time with ducks and dogs. she always got along with the cats and rabbits, so who knew?))) naturally with a bulldog when there is a struggle and blood she went into that frenzied prey drive mode and was determined to KEEP that duck in her mouth. i did NOT want to kill the duck! but she was aiming to.... so in a sense i had no choice but to put all my weight on her until someone could rescue the duck. and i didnt let her up until she settled down.

i still have that duck today and he walks around perfectly normal and is the father of twelve others just like him. and Kaydee has no lasting bad effects from the encounter. i on the other hand learned my lesson.....
 

BCMixs

This is how wild dogs in a pack establish dominance among each other so that no real fights have to take place. It is the canine way of keeping the peace - establishing who is boss before a fight occurs. This establishes and maintains a strict social structure.

No, it is not and that fact has been established by researchers who actually observe dogs. Here's some personal experience. Right now, we have a mouse in the house. My dog and cat have been hunting together, in cooperation. She gets into places he can't but he has better speed. Now, either a dog is a pack animal and my cat is part of the pack, or, because my dog can cooperate with a cat to hunt, then he is not a true pack animal. Cats are not pack animals. But dogs are social creatures. But even studies of wild canids show that they do not organize by forcing each other to submit. The one that appears submissive is actually offering appeasement and usually gets what he/she wants by offering the nice gesture.

BCMixs

5. If he doesn't look away or shut his eyes, bounce his head against the floor lightly a few times with the hand you have on his throat, using the loose skin there. He'll "submit

Really, now? So, forcibly, as a puppy, fluidly hobble and down the dog and then bounce his head if he fails to avert his gaze even though his gaze might mean "what the heck are you doing to me? "Actually, I just thought of Charlton Heston in "Planet of the Apes." The dog might be thinking the same thing. "Get your hands off me, you damn, dirty ape!"

I am not assuming that you actually do these things but you are supporting and suggesting them. Theories and techniques that may deserve their place in history along with outhouses. An interesting thing in history but we've got indoor plumbing, these days.

BCMixs

Trainers and behaviorists suggest incorporating Dominance exercises into day-to-day living so the puppy understands its place in the family

I think that's also inaccurate. Actual behaviorists are people who have education and usually decades of experience. Some of the more well-known ones have a DVM, a Masters and a Doctorate, usually in behavioral psychology with a specialty in animals, some specifically with pet animals. I'm not aware that any of the legitimate and certified behaviorists believe in the alpha dominance thing or using this exercise.

FWIW, I started out thinking just the like these articles suggested, minus the bouncing head thingy. And my dog would "submit" until I released and then he would do whatever it was again (namely, jumping on guests.) He was raised by his first owners with wrestling as play and anything like this that I could do felt like play, a reinforcer. And so, DPU, the clairevoyant one, has a point. Done enough times, it loses it's flavor as a punishment or interruptor and becomes either play or a non-event. Familiarity breeds contempt, some times.

As for doing something because that's the way it's always been done doesn't necessarily make it right. My mom and previous generations would cook with lard. That's how you did things. But I have changed. I don't cook with lard. I don't even use butter.

ron2

BCMixs

This is how wild dogs in a pack establish dominance among each other so that no real fights have to take place.

No, it is not and that fact has been established by researchers who actually observe dogs.

I'd like to point out that one of these statements is no more a "fact" than than the other. It's all a matter of the observer's opinion. I have shown videos where my alpha dog has rolled another of my pack and it's still not considered a dominance display by some. It's interpreted as something else. By the human. I have seen it happen many times, especially with the new puppies in the household.

Ron, just because you haven't seen something, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I happen to agree with BCMixs here, that alpha dogs will put another dog on the ground to prevent a fight. But that's just my opinion. The only ones who know the facts about the reason for this behavior are the dogs.

FourIsCompany

I'd like to point out that one of these statements is no more a "fact" than than the other

And, to put a point on it, my "opinion" is based on the research of such people as L. David Mech, the Coppingers, et al. So, by stating that your dog dominance rolls another dog for social position and order is saying that the observations of other involved in canids is wrong. At least it seems that way to me and it sound like I'm putting words in your mouth. Sorry, and yes, I was my hands.

FourIsCompany

where my alpha dog has rolled another of my pack and it's still not considered a dominance display by some

And I think that's because there are two sides to the event. B'asia's, of course. And the other dog. The one who "submits". If the other dog did not appease, there would truly be a fight. That is, it is the "submissive" dog that actually brings calm, hence the idea of the social order from the bottom up.

Here's an example. I know you have stated before that you consider yourself a dominant person. In the voice of Dr. Phil, how's that working for you? A person can get along with you if they choose, and not get along or agree if they so choose. So ( and not that you are and I'm not implying it in the least) you could browbeat and condescend and act dominant all day and not get any social order if others don't help to provide the social order.

Another example. Shadow got to meet a Chihuahua named Oz (short for Ozzy Osbourne) at a friend's place a year or so ago in fenced enclosure. We unleashed and Shadow was all about play. Play bows, averted gazes, short hops. But Oz hadn't evidently been around enough big dogs and got anxious and started snarling and barking. Shadow, not knowing what was up started to follow suit. I commanded "off" and he off'd in mid snarl. So, Shadow, the one who "submitted" by following my command returned domestic tranquility to the scene. Oz was not about to back down and was the one who started it.

Suffice it to say that at least some of my opinions are based on scientific observation by others, others who have made a career out of it.

 For those who use AR's or DD's, I think you'd be surprised at how effective it can be to stiffen your body, and give the dog a hard, direct stare. (NOT suggested for strange dogs. I'm talking about your own dog, when the dog is being unruly or ill mannered.)

Eko is as hard headed as the day is long, and the most effective way to get him to stop an obnoxious behavior is the above. I learned it watching Sasha.   Sasha is definitely the boss-o-him, and she doesn't roll him or pin him by his throat to assert herself.

Yesterday I had a friend over, and Eko was bugging her about the glass of water she was holding. (Keep in mind, he is especially squirrely because he's been on crate rest 2 weeks). I said "Show him your teeth." She made a silly teeth baring face, and voila, he backed off immediately. She could have had the same impact by stiffening her body and staring, but that would have been harder to explain in the moment.  

I have noticed that alpha rolls are used for more than just dominance.....in my pack there is a young GSD/Tanner that gets super excited at times even to the point of scream like barking......this makes for instability in the pack, saying that the other dogs get nerved by it is an understatement.....his butt gets pinned and rolled by the other members ......peace returns.......

ron2

So, by stating that your dog dominance rolls another dog for social position and order is saying that the observations of other involved in canids is wrong.

No. Not "wrong", it's just their opinion. There is no right and wrong in opinion. Only the dogs can say who is right and wrong.

And to be clear, it is my OPINION that my dog dominance rolls another dog for social position and order, but that other dog ALSO plays his or her part by responding with a display of submission. Otherwise, there would be a fight. In my opinion, this is not a one-sided thing where a big bully dog is knocking everyone down all the time to show her status. The dogs work together to maintain order. In my opinion.

ron2

Suffice it to say that at least some of my opinions are based on scientific observation by others, others who have made a career out of it.

So are mine.   But more importantly, my opinions are based on my own observations and study.

ron2

I am not assuming that you actually do these things but you are supporting and suggesting them.

Wrong.  I'm not supporting OR suggesting them.  If you read my post, it says they are description of methods that are all called "alpha rolls" or "dominance down" but clearly shows they are VERY DIFFERENT MANEUVERS.  My point in posting them was not suggesion or support but to show that what I call dominance down could be something very different from what you or someone else might be imagining.  It was posted as a suggestion that before any real conversation or debate on the method can take place, I think each person needs to explain just what they mean or imagine when they use the term so the opportunity for confusion or assumptions is reduced.  And if you read my original post, I was neither suggesting nor supporting their use for anyone other than myself and my dogs.  It's not something that someone should just up and try on their dog after reading the internet, you could harm the dog and could be harmed yourself with the wrong dog.  And I personally, would never use the technique described with the dog fully on it's back and the owner staring it down, that seems way too heavy handed for my taste.  But I wouldn't vilify someone who does use it successfully and properly on their dogs, I don't own large, dominant breeds such as rotties and wouldn't think it right for me to dictate to someone else how to manage their particular dog.  As with  any training technique, it can be used incorrectly and can cause problems.  I've seen people who think clicker training is the bomb but can't get the dog to do anything without the clicker and a pocketful of treats.

FWIW, the method that I used was the one described on the cocker page, a gentle pull down into a lying position with it's head on the floor and being required to remain in that position until released.  It's sort of a variation on a long down stay except that the dog is lying on its side.  He was forcefully placed into the position by me grabbing the scruff of his neck, maybe 3 times in his life, and each time for very serious aggressive behavior and what instigated the behavior (in one case, rawhide) was removed or addressed.  For us, it was like DumDog, a time out for the dog, much like I've used on my kids, only the  dog didn't have a chair in the corner to sit in. 

Dog_ma

 For those who use AR's or DD's, I think you'd be surprised at how effective it can be to stiffen your body, and give the dog a hard, direct stare. (NOT suggested for strange dogs. I'm talking about your own dog, when the dog is being unruly or ill mannered.)

Eko is as hard headed as the day is long, and the most effective way to get him to stop an obnoxious behavior is the above. I learned it watching Sasha.   Sasha is definitely the boss-o-him, and she doesn't roll him or pin him by his throat to assert herself.

Yesterday I had a friend over, and Eko was bugging her about the glass of water she was holding. (Keep in mind, he is especially squirrely because he's been on crate rest 2 weeks). I said "Show him your teeth." She made a silly teeth baring face, and voila, he backed off immediately. She could have had the same impact by stiffening her body and staring, but that would have been harder to explain in the moment.  

i like these methods too and glad i'm not the only one thats used them lmao!!! well.... my cousin uses them on her bulldog too. pretty funny to witness but works like a charm!

Kaydee responds to tone, as does Amber. But Kaydee could care less if you glare at her when she is fixated on something. she just doesnt see you. you could be IN her face and she will just step around you to keep her eyes on the "target" .... which could be anything from two chickens chasing each other, or someone trying to hold her back so Ben can fetch the stick.... And Ben.... i dont have to do anything with him. even a soft voice and slow hand will make him cower at times. he's better than he was when he first got here.. he used to bolt and woe betide the person on the other end of the leash!

the shepherd puppy is one of those annoying playful types.... like i mentioned above. i had to move her to the other room so she would leave Amber alone. at one point she kept trying to paw at Amber just to get a reaction -even a bad one yes - well.... on such occasion she pawed Amber right in the face and it smarted..so Amber snapped at her foot and bit her toe.. that made Miki yelp and run away.. but she came running back for more.. so i made her lie down and be still. she was getting too worked up. 

Since that happened she has gotten better at reading body language lol Amber does the glare thing at her and it keeps her back at a distance. and she doesnt paw at her anymore!!

i dont think my rolling her had anything to do with curing her. that was just time and her own common sense.... she has learned to pay heed to Amber's obvious hints at being left alone! Miki has graduated to play-bowing and tail wagging. not just all out flattening her playmates. 

I've seen a lot of dogs appear to alpha roll another dog, but I'm yet to see a successful alpha roll by a dog that hasn't had a fair bit of cooperation from the other dog. In fact, most of the time, the aggressor barely touches the other dog, and the other dog rolls on its own, which is that dog's way of saying "I don't want to fight!". 

I've seen Pyry try to alpha roll Jill, but he's too small to force her if she doesn't want to do it. His solution is to keep at her until she does it. That means if the fight gets broken up by people before Jill goes down, Pyry's funny about her for the rest of they day, or maybe even longer, and the chances of another fight are high. He's never tried to alpha roll Penny as far as I know.

I have seen Penny get pinned by a larger dog's chest. It doesn't seem to matter what position the bottom dog is in for a pin to be effective. I've seen it a lot in large dogs that are trying not to hurt the little dog but still want to put an end to the argument. That's about as forceful as I've seen in a dog fight short of Chloe going nuts and holding Penny off the ground by her thigh and giving her a good hard shake, but that's not typical dog behaviour.

I'm inclined to think that when people say they've seen dogs alpha rolling one another, what they've actually seen is a submissive response to aggression. The submissive dog is the one that rolls itself, not the aggressor rolling it. I think that because I've seen it myself more times than I can count and in countless individual dogs as well. I know the aggressor is not the one forcing the dog down because of the weight balance between them, and the timing of the roll. IMO, an alpha roll is a forced thing.

If you consider what I've described between dogs to be an alpha roll and that's what you're doing to your dog, then I agree that dogs do it to each other. I just don't think they force a dog down, although it might be different with puppies because they're so small and it's so easy to squash them with a nose.
 

FourIsCompany

 

I'd like to point out that one of these statements is no more a "fact" than than the other. It's all a matter of the observer's opinion. I have shown videos where my alpha dog has rolled another of my pack and it's still not considered a dominance display by some. It's interpreted as something else. By the human. I have seen it happen many times, especially with the new puppies in the household.

Ron, just because you haven't seen something, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I happen to agree with BCMixs here, that alpha dogs will put another dog on the ground to prevent a fight. But that's just my opinion. The only ones who know the facts about the reason for this behavior are the dogs.

 I have stayed out of this one up til now, since I am tired of the same old arguments, but I have to step in on this one and agree with Four. I have seen dogs use this tactic, I have owned dogs that used this tactic. Exactly why I cannot say since I cannot get into their heads but as an observer I would have to say that it looks to me like one dog is putting another dog in its place and doing so without injury to the other dog.