Alpha rolls and the dominance myth

    • Gold Top Dog

    One dog putting another in its place, or one dog aggressing and the other going down before a fight breaks out? That's an important distinction to me. I'm not saying the former doesn't occur, but I've never seen it (in the alpha roll context) and I've seen the latter dozens of times. There is a difference, and if you watch closely enough, it's clear, because you can't deny physics. Pyry is physically unable to put Jill on the ground, but he's quite capable of starting a fight with her and she's quite capable of ending it by going down on her own. Even putting Penny down entirely against her will would be physically very difficult for him.

    I haven't seen much CM, but when I've seen him put a dog down in an "alpha roll", it's been the dog's choice to go down. That's something I'm more comfortable with saying a dog might understand, but I'm inclined to think it's a display of extreme fear of someone. Penny has only ever done it once and it was when she accidentally bit me when I got between her and a dog she was snapping at. It was almost like the doggy equivalent of a mortified "oh god! I'm so sorry!" the likes of which you might do if you accidentally injured someone. That's not a reaction I particularly want to see in my dog, but that's my choice.

    • Gold Top Dog

    You had it right that what looks like alpha roles by a superior ranking canid in the group is actually the other one offering appeasement. So, it is the one who offers appeasement who helps maintain social order. And that has been shown by researchers who study this. And many wil not agree with the findings of scientists on a thing. It happens in other arenas, too.

    If someone were to alpha roll me, either physically or figuratively, it would depend on my desire to appease as to how well that is going to work.

    At my job, I have a bigger license than anyone else, I am bigger than anyone else, I have more trained fighting skills than anyone else. But I am not the boss of this job. I do what the boss says and keep my opinions to myself unless specifically asked for it. My behavior brings cohesion and unity to our group.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Edie
    I totally disagree with alpha rolls and that owners have to be staunchly dominant over their dogs.

    I found these two links and would like to hear your views on them.

    Debunking the Dominance Myth - Dog Public

    Bouvier - Myths about the Alpha Roll

     

    I found both articles to be very misleading about the real reason the alpha roll isn't a good idea. So I wrote my own...

    "The Proper Way to Do an Alpha Roll"

    LCK
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    That's a good article.

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2

    If someone were to alpha roll me, either physically or figuratively, it would depend on my desire to appease as to how well that is going to work.

    LOL! Reminds me of when I was four years old and a doctor suddenly jabbed my finger to draw some blood. Took three grown men to hold me down.

    I was scared, I didn't trust the doctor, I did not submit.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Very good article, Lee, especially this bit...

    the exercise does nothing to teach the dog how to use her energy properly. It only puts a lid on it momentarily.


    • Gold Top Dog

    Edie

     I totally disagree with alpha rolls and that owners have to be staunchly dominant over their dogs.

    I found these two links and would like to hear your views on them.

     Debunking the Dominance Myth - Dog Public

    Bouvier - Myths about the Alpha Roll

     

    Has this old chestnut come up again?  I take a break from the training sections and here it's the same old, same old, LOL!

    The Bouvier article was an excellent summary of what I've observed myself, and what most experts today agree.  You can be a leader among your dogs, have their respect, but there's no need (and it's unwise, of course), to be mean.

    The dog I've learned the most from (and I learn my most important lessons directly from my dogs, not studies, though I'm a voracious reader), is eight-pound, fragile skinned, Zhi.  She can have any dog at all eating out of her itty bitty paw in mere minutes, even dogs that the owners swear up and down hate all dogs and have no social skills.

    She starts by identifying what that dog wants from her.  for some, it's abject submission, for some, it's play, for some, it's abuse.  She gives the dog what they want long enough to gain that dog's trust, then WHAM, the rules arrive.  Thou shalt worship me in all that thou doest.  Thou shalt not initiate play for that is my perogative.  Thou shalt not cease play when I desire it.  Thou shalt givest me all the toys, and all the treats, and unto you I may deign to share.  Maybe.  If you are nice.

    Her weapon is simple.  Her scorn.  She's the true Dog Whisperer.  Every dog here wants her attention desperately, and will do anything to get it, and every do who comes arrives at that state within moments of meeting her.

    I've used fragments of this approach in many different ways, in dealing with problem dogs.  

    Alpha rolls are incredibly stupid.  Generations of dogs have been subjected to them and that proves to me the overall temperamental stability of the canine gene pool, thanks be.   "Hey, I know a good way to show my dog who's boss - I'll put him in a position where he can easily access me with both his claws and his teeth, and hold him there with my face right in his!"

    An emergency "cooldown" hold looks similar but has very different motives and has vital differences in position.  You hold the dog on his stomach, head on the ground, allowing him to face away from you, you to give him space (but still restrain him), and keeping those teeth and claws in a neutral position.  The dog is only uncomfortable if he strains against you, so he is instantly rewarded for relaxing - this reduces adrenaline levels dramatically.

    I don't use this for any kind of punishment or to make some kind of point, it's a safety thing, usually if a dog has taken a swipe at me or someone else.   I make sure I take deep calming breaths and smile and talk gently to the dog - it's incredibly important for a dog that's just attempted to bite, to know their status remains the same, that my expectations remain unchanged.

    Do not attempt this without training, by the way.  I had a former AC officer and vet show me how to do this. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    brookcove
    "Hey, I know a good way to show my dog who's boss - I'll put him in a position where he can easily access me with both his claws and his teeth, and hold him there with my face right in his!"

     

    This is NOT an alpha roll, this is wrestling your dog, i dont know anybody who will put their face close to the dog's face to "teach him who's the boss" 

    brookcove
    An emergency "cooldown" hold looks similar but has very different motives and has vital differences in position.  You hold the dog on his stomach, head on the ground, allowing him to face away from you, you to give him space (but still restrain him), and keeping those teeth and claws in a neutral position.  The dog is only uncomfortable if he strains against you, so he is instantly rewarded for relaxing - this reduces adrenaline levels dramatically.

     

    This is for me a REAL alpha roll or how you call it, "an emergency cooldown", however you want to name it, its exactly the same, you just have a fancier name for it 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Good article LCK, you had me going.....

    • Gold Top Dog

    brookcove
    The Bouvier article was an excellent summary of what I've observed myself, and what most experts today agree.

    That's not true. The Bouvier article perpetuates at least two major myths: that dogs form dominance hierarchies, with rank, status, ritualistic displays, etc. It also repeats the ridiculous notion that dogs bear the same basic relationship to wolves, behaviorally speaking, that humans do to chimps. Both ideas exist as part of the current dog world folklore, which some of the "experts" you speak of are sadly responsible for.

    The truth is dogs do not form dominance hierarchies, social hierarchies, or any kind of hierarchies. Read "The Social Organization of the Domestic Dog" by Alexandra Semyonova, or "Is Your Dog Dominant?" by yours truly, Semyonova's 15 year study shows that dog social structure can be easily described in autopoietic terms as a self-organizing system, ruled from the bottom up, not the top down. In fact seeing it in those terms makes much more sense than the old alpha model.

    My article points out the flaws in the philosophical basis of the alpha theory. One of those flaws is that wild wolves simply do not form dominance hierarchies. And since the idea that dogs form such hierarchies is based on the flawed premise that they've "inherited" this "instinct" from wolves...well do see where I'm going with this? How can dogs have inherited an instinct that never really existed in wolves in the first place? And yet one of the primary "studies" cited in the Bouvier article still relies on this myth. And the article is filled with more of the same untrue, badly outdated stuff.

    As for the chimp : human :: wolf : dog argument, you could read my article "It's In His Blood," or you could just sample some of it here:

    Ian Dunbar says that since humans share roughly the same amount of DNA (98.6%) with chimps as dogs do with wolves, then, logically speaking, trying to train dogs by studying wolf behavior is like learning how to raise a child by watching chimps, to “see how they do it.” This despite the fact that a mere 12,000 - 120,000 years of evolution separates dogs and wolves, while 6.5 million years separates us from chimps. And even when you parse that comparison down by the numbers of generations rather than the number of years, there’s still a significant difference. And here’s something even more disingenuous on Dunbar’s part: we don’t, in fact share 98.6% of our DNA with chimps; we share 98.6% of our nucleotide sequence. And as cognitive scientist Daniel Povinelli, of the University of Louisiana, puts it: “New research has shown that rough similarity in our nucleotide sequences obscures the fact that the same genes may have dramatically different activity levels in the two species. So even where humans and chimpanzees share genes in common, it turns out that there are what can only be described as major differences in gene expression.” In other words chimps and humans aren’t anywhere near as alike as Dunbar would have us believe, nor even remotely as alike as dogs and wolves actually are to each other.

    Meanwhile Dunbar’s inapt analogy also crumbles when we consider that by some scientific forms of reckoning dogs are actually a sub-species of the wolf (canis lupus, canis lupus famliaris), while chimps and humans (pan troglodytes, homo sapiens) aren’t even in the same family. For instance, even though I dislike Jay Leno, I watched a wildlife segment the other night, just to see a gray wolf on The Tonight Show.

    It was shocking to behold this gorgeous, majestic animal. We’ve all seen cheetahs and alligators and grizzlies on talk shows before. And they look dangerous and exotic and scary. But what was so shocking about seeing a wolf climbing into the chair next to Jay’s (technically Johnny’s) desk was that he looked very wild and yet very much like a cross between a big sweet German shepherd and a giant malamute. Leno’s wildlife expert even warned people about not making the same mistake and cautioned them not to try petting a wolf, if they should ever see one up close (presumably in a sanctuary; it’s doubtful you’d get a chance in the wild). The point is, we feel awed by something so wild and dangerous as a grizzly bear. The hairs on the back of our neck stand up when we see one in such close proximity to a human being. But while that same wild, dangerous energy is present in a wolf’s appearance and movement, he also looks so familiar and comfortable, like you actually could go up and pet him or kiss him on the nose. I think that’s what was so shocking about the one I saw on Leno.

    Granted, you’d never mistake a pug or a dachshund for a wolf. But the point is that it is possible to mistake a wolf for a large dog. And would anyone in their right ever mistake a chimp for a human being, or vice versa? No. Despite the shared nucleotide sequence, the number of evolutionary changes in the two species, chimp and human, are huge.

    As Povinelli says: "Chimpanzees have probably changed relatively little from the common ancestor they shared with us about five million years ago. Indeed, of all of the members of the great ape/ human group who shared a common ancestor about fifteen million years ago, none, indeed, has diverged as much as humans. A simple thought experiment may help to put this point into perspective: line up all of the species in question--gorillas, orangutans, chimpanzees, bonobos, humans--and one of them immediately stands out. Guess which one?"

    And that's only taking into consideration the differences in morphology between the two species. But Dunbar's argument (quoted nearly verbatim without attribution in the Bouvier article) is about the differences in behavior. Well, guess what? You can see a lot more of the wolf's ways of relating to the world in dog behavior and society than you can see of the chimp's relationship to the world in human behavior and society. In other words, dogs and wolves are much closer to each other than we -- with our big cities, cultures and civilizations, art and literature and music, religion, philosophy, and inventions -- are to chimps. Where's the chimp version of Edison, Shakespeare, Newton, or Mozart? Of course that's part of Dunbar's sophistry. There's soooooo much difference between humans and chimps, right? so according to Dunbar, given their shared DNA, there must be the same huge level of difference between dogs and wolves. But there isn't. Where is the dog version of Edison, Shakespeare, etc.? This is a terribly strained analogy that just doesn't fly when you really look at it.

    I hope that clears up why I found the Bouvier article lacking and misleading.

    LCK

    • Gold Top Dog

    While the points made are excellent at pointing out the dangers of using a hackeneyed understanding of genetics to point out similarities between species, in the end, your words do more to support the notion of dogs and wolves being more similar than human to chimps.

    In my amateur opinion, which also includes respect to gene expression and nDNA and the analysis of others more schooled in it than I am, dogs did not come from wolves. Wolves, dogs, and coyotes came from similar canids. And, in structure and nDNA, which controls structure, dogs more resemble coyotes, which doesn't mean dogs came from coyotes. Add to that the fact that wolves and dogs can produce viable hybrid off-spring and you wind up with a co-mingling of the species, which may owe it's affect to a singular locus of mtDNA. The mtDNA is where such people as Robert K. Wayne get the notion that dogs are essentially domesticated wolves.

    But I did get your point, which is often side-stepped. Even if dogs did come from wolves and are neotenous and derivative of wolves, how could they inherit a behavior, even watered down, so to speak, that wolves don't have?

    I think dog behavior offers more proof to independent evolution from similar canids than derivation from one of the wild canids. That one behavior is the thing that dogs do that other canids do not do. Dogs, canis familiaris, look to humans for cues. Canis Lupus does not. Neither does Canis Latrans.

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    ron2
    I think dog behavior offers more proof to independent evolution from similar canids than derivation from one of the wild canids. That one behavior is the thing that dogs do that other canids do not do. Dogs, canis familiaris, look to humans for cues. Canis Lupus does not. Neither does Canis Latrans.
    You may be right that the fairly brief evolutionary history of the dog in tandem with homo sapiens is primarily responsible for this behavior. But from my understanding of the main study that gives us this factoid (if you will), the domesticated dog's ability to follow a human's gaze, etc., may very well be a learned, not genetic set of behaviors.

    LCK 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee Charles Kelley
    But from my understanding of the main study that gives us this factoid (if you will), the domesticated dog's ability to follow a human's gaze, etc., may very well be a learned, not genetic set of behaviors

    That's an equally plausible theory, as well. When I thought that the singular locus of mtDNA shared between dogs and the other canids being a possible reason they can interbreed, that is not supported, as yet, by a documented scientific link. Just a theory, hence the use of the word "may". I should have underlined that. I feared someone would come along and say I was talking out my butt, when it's just a theory, a plausible alternate explanation that can be proven wrong if shown the right evidence. And yes, attention to humans could be a learned skill. Or it could be genetic. I think of some studies wherein foxes where kept and bred specifically for human friendliness. After some generations, they started to take on the appearance of dogs, some structure, such as floppy ears, the variagation of coats, and successive generations becoming more attuned to humans. So, there is a possibility that such a behavior is a potential in a number of canids. But through natural selection, whether that be life with humans or life alone, only what is necessary is developed, though that is getting close to saying that evolution is radial adaptation, which some minds think it is not. The answer might be in the middle.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee Charles Kelley

    Edie
    I totally disagree with alpha rolls and that owners have to be staunchly dominant over their dogs.

    I found these two links and would like to hear your views on them.

    Debunking the Dominance Myth - Dog Public

    Bouvier - Myths about the Alpha Roll

     

    I found both articles to be very misleading about the real reason the alpha roll isn't a good idea. So I wrote my own...

    "The Proper Way to Do an Alpha Roll"

    LCK
     

     

    I loved your article.  But mostly I loved the comment left at the end!  That just made me giggle!

    • Gold Top Dog
    ron2
    I think of some studies wherein foxes where kept and bred specifically for human friendliness. After some generations, they started to take on the appearance of dogs, some structure, such as floppy ears, the variagation of coats, and successive generations becoming more attuned to humans. So, there is a possibility that such a behavior is a potential in a number of canids.

    To say that the Russian foxes "started to take on the appearance of dogs" isn't really true, that's putting a lot of spin on Belyaev's findings. Yes the foxes did develop floppy ears into adulthood, which is true of many, but NOT ALL dog breeds, and yes their coats became similar to that of SOME breeds of dogs. All of this really only proves one thing: that when you breed for temperament you get unexpected results. But the Russian foxes are NOT dogs, nor are they really "doglike" in any significant way. They're not fetching anyone's slippers or guarding the hen house or dragging their owners to the fox park so they can play for hours with the other foxes. Tameness does not in any way equal the same level of sociability that dogs have. That comes directly from the wolf's group hunting dynamic, something foxes simply don't have any instinct for. This is why that despite their morphological similarities, in behavioral terms, the Russian foxes are more like cats than dogs.

    Remember, I think the idea that dogs became domesticated because they scavenged at human encampments is looking at things inside out. I think wolves domesticated us and in the process they became dogs and we became human.

    You keep mentioning coyotes as the true progenitor of the dog (as a theory), and that dogs did not descend from wolves, but either from a common, proto-wolf/dog ancestor, or from another wild ancestor more of the coyote family, etc. Here's the thing though: from what we know at this point in time, the two species (dog and wolf) split off around 120,000 years ago, maybe more, maybe less. Correct? Now I don't know enough about coyotes and their evolutionary history to be able to factor that in to my views on this, but from what I understand, the wolf as a species is roughly a million years old. That's reportedly the time when the split in the micadae took place and the first gray wolf appeared. If that's the case then I don't see how you can say that the dog (and possibly even the coyote) aren't the genetic offspring, so to speak, of that original canine species, the million year old gray wolf.

    Now back to the foxes, and the real lesson from Belyaev: when you breed a dog for certain group hunting purposes, like retrieving, what happens? They become more socially adaptable. When you breed dogs for more independent hunting traits, like those that are common in terriers, the breeds are LESS socially adaptable. This would indicate that a great deal of a dog's sociability is dependent on how closely the particular hunting instincts you're breeding for relate back in some way to the wolf's group hunting dynamic rather than a more solitary style of predation (as found to some extent in coyotes and most definitely in foxes). On the flip side, when some breeds are bred more for their social nature than for their hunting skills, as has been done with some Labs and golden retrievers in the last 20 years or so, you tend to get unexpected aggression where you didn't see it before. You used to NEVER see aggression in Labs and goldens, and the reason we're seeing it more and more NOW has to do with the fact that they've been bred recently more for their "friendliness" than their hunting skills. So if you ask me, the real lesson from Belyaev is the opposite of what's being argued by Coppinger and others.

    LCK