Alpha rolls and the dominance myth

Here's one thread that got a lot of chatter.

http://forum.dog.com/forums/t/28604.aspx?PageIndex=1

There was a 35-page thread about this recently that I was heavily involved in. So instead of going over it all again, I'll just give you that link. I learned a lot in that thread. Among other things, that different people mean different things when they use the term "Alpha Roll", so you may want to define exactly what it is to you.

And Swissy posted another one! LOL
 

FourIsCompany

There was a 35-page thread about this recently that I was heavily involved in. So instead of going over it all again, I'll just give you that link. I learned a lot in that thread. Among other things, that different people mean different things when they use the term "Alpha Roll", so you may want to define exactly what it is to you.

And Swissy posted another one! LOL
 

Geez 4IC mine was only 26 pages!   LOL 

61 pages between the two links, i dont think any one here wants to add more to that, if the OP is interested on our point or view about the topic i'm sure he will find everybody's opinion there

nice articles. they prove a point, i think. personally i dont use alpha rolls or other dominance theorie related training techniques anymore. not because i was convinced by science. but simply because i realized none of them make me or my dogs any happier. once i stopped thinking in terms of dominance and submission, i stopped getting mad at my dogs and could calmly adress problems. much less stress for everyone....

 This is my problem when it comes to these debunking discussion.  Alpha Rolls equals forced submission.  But I see no difference between that and the promoted approach. 

From the article:  "To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first."

Using the lowest basic survival need of nournishment as the 'club' to get the dog to sit is willful forced dominance of the dog by the human, IMO.  Things like SIT or COME are natural behaviors of dogs and only require reinforcement by simply using affection to be put on cue.  You never see dogs rewarding or punishing each other by sharing or withholding food. 

I personally feel no need to be alpha.  We've got a nice flowing relationship going on here and I dont' see the need to dominate anyone.

However, I do expect a sit for a treat, and a calm waiting for their name to be called.  This is basic manners.

No one is suggesting that anyone STARVE their dog into submission.  They are simply asking for the exercise of good manners.

glenmar

I personally feel no need to be alpha. We've got a nice flowing relationship going on here

glenmar

However, I do expect a sit for a treat,

Unless you sit for their affection in return, then one of you is "the leader" over the other. Call it alpha, the boss, the benevolent leader or the dominant being in the relationship, one of you is making the rules and one of you is following them. You probably follow rules, too, but you made them.

I don't understand the aversion to the words alpha and dominance other than some imagined picture of an overbearing, angry, mean person kicking a dog or something. People make the rules in the household. They tell the dog what's acceptable and what's not. If you pooped in the middle of the living room, the dog isn't going to punish you, clean it up for you, make sure you know to go in the bathroom or even care, most likely. The dogs don't dictate what is "good manners" to you and insist you follow them.

I will never understand the problem people have with these words or the differentiation they make. You're not alpha or dominant, you just insist on manners. Well, ok. Whatever you want to call it. Some of us don't have a problem with the word. And we aren't overbearing tyrants or malevolent dictators.

Just FYI.  

Perhaps I do have an unfair mental picture.  Or, perhaps I simply don't see the need to "always be in charge".  Shrug.

glenmar

I do expect a sit for a treat, and a calm waiting for their name to be called.  This is basic manners.

Or just another way to be dominant, like 4IC said, you are making them sit and teaching them manners, thats setting rules boundaries and limitations, exactly what an Alpha does 

glenmar

Or, perhaps I simply don't see the need to "always be in charge".

Then you would not feel the need of teaching them manners 

Moderator speaking...

I'm going to guess, that in the links given to prior discussion...there was evidence of mods having to step in due to picking at, rudeness, and other such behavior cropping up...it tends to always do so when this topic is discussed.

Therefore, I will ask that the same sort of thing NOT crop up here and people self moderate, and consider what they post and if it actually is about the topic, and adds to the topic...or if it's about something more personal. Take a moment before hitting that reply button folks...

Thanks.

Whatever.

Or maybe it's just my way of insuring that I do not have six large, out of control dogs?

DPU

You never see dogs rewarding or punishing each other by sharing or withholding food. 

I have seen Sally do just that with Jack.  We don't let them share their actual food, but they do get to share bones.  If Jack barges up and tries to get the bone Sally picks it up and turns her back to him.  If he barges in again, he gets the same response.  If he lays down quietly next to her, wiggles a little closer, and continues to lay quietly, Sally will allow to to first lick, then chew the other end of the bone.  

When I was watching a documentary on the Sawtooth wolf pack (not quite dogs but related), if a lower wolf were to rudely barge in on a higher wolf during feeding, the response by the higher up often involved driving the offending wolf away from the food.

My horse Snafu actually punishes obnoxious herd mates by withholding food.  There is another gelding called Mountain in the herd.  If Mountain in in the paddock without Snafu, he will often drive the other horses away from the hay and keep the entire round bale for himself.  If Snafu is turned out while this is going on, he promptly drives Mountain away from the hay to the other side of the paddock and allows the other horses to come eat.  When Mountain decides to be civil, Snafu allows him back with the rest of the group to eat.  This happens on such a regular basis that the barn manager has decided that wherever Mountain is, Snafu must also be to keep him in line.     

ETA:  To me there are a LOT of differences in rolling a dog (in my world that means laying a dog down on its side and making it stay there) and making a dog sit for a treat.  Body position, for one (and this is something that we know is important to dogs).  A "sit" is a fairly neutral position.  Being put down on ones side and held there is a position of total submission--the dog is at the handlers mercy and he knows it.

In addition, if you are "rolling" a dog, there is no exchange.  It is not a "if you want to go outside/have dinner/have a treat/have this toy/fetch that toy out of the lake/ you must first preform XYZ."  It is a "you WILL go down on your side and STAY there because I am MAKING you."  There is a very big difference between those two things.  I have done both, and trust me, there is a HUGE difference in forcing a 60 lb onto his side and making him stay there and asking him to sit for a treat.  Much less resistance and struggling involved in the latter, and I don't think this fact is exactly lost on the dog.

Honestly, I can't speak for anyone else, but with my own very stubborn and determined dog, it is the difference between working with him and working against him.  I have watched our other dog attempt to punish him by repeatedly leaping on him (not sure if she was forcing him down or he went willingly, but he ended up on the ground) and his response is to repeatedly pop back up with a "Whatever b***h" attitude and do the same thing she was just punishing him for over again until after weeks SHE finally gave up.  I have watched DH try to be the more strict and forceful one of the two of us and seen Jack give him the "doggy finger" as we call it.  He is not aggressive but he is stubborn (very, very stubborn) and with Jack, force really does create resistance.  

Although I intend to PM Gina and apologize, I want to make it VERY clear that my last post was NOT in response to her.  Just so everyone is VERY clear that I was not telling Gina to take a hike.