Alpha rolls and the dominance myth

FourIsCompany

that different people mean different things when they use the term "Alpha Roll", so you may want to define exactly what it is to you

I saw CM do it for the first time the other day,and i was as horrified as the dogs he did it to appeared to be. My heart just sank and i felt so sorry for those poor dogs

So,to me,an alpha roll is grabbing the dog by the scruff and flipping them over.Any such "dominance" type moves are wrong in my book.

I've had dogs all my life and never once have i had to use force on them.I've never thought about who walks through the door first or who eats first or last.They are simply treated as a part of my family. 

Edie

I've had dogs all my life and never once have i had to use force on them.

That's great. Have you ever had an aggressive dog who tried to kill another dog, bite another person, attack a child on a skateboard or bite you? Maybe or maybe not. I just wanted to point out that the dogs Cesar Milan deals with are many times problem dogs who have serious aggression issues.

Is the roll he does the only way to handle these aggression issues? Probably not. But it is one way.

I personally don't care who walks through the door or eats first either and my dogs are treated as members of the family. But if I had a problem dog, I might implement some situations where the dog would get a clearer picture of who made the rules in the relationship and walking through the door first might be one of those situations.   

Edie

Any such "dominance" type moves are wrong in my book.

That's cool. Fortunately, no one is forcing you to do these to your dogs.  

Edie

I've had dogs all my life and never once have i had to use force on them.

"use force on them", is in eye of the beholder.  How about the first time you had give one of your dogs a bath or groomed the dog?  Maybe not you but maybe someone else has used force on your dogs.  At a vet visit, getting shots or an xray...or any number of procedures.  Do you have any idea howf vet techs and groomers submit a dog so they can perform their jobs.  It is hard for me to believe any statement that includes the word NEVER.

Great points, DPU. I use force on my dogs all the time. I'm just not ashamed or embarrassed to do so. I also force them to stay on our property by use of a fence. And if we leave, I force them to wear a collar and lead. I force them to eliminate outside and I do force them to lie on the couch while I clip their nails. I force them to go to the vet, even though they would rather be in the pasture eating bunny poop. And I forced them to wear the dreaded Elizabethan collar and to be leashed to me for 2 weeks when they were recovering from various surgeries.

I also use physical force. I sometimes block their way and I even push on them with my leg, hold them still while I pull stickers out of their feet or remove cactus splines from their muzzle. When the play gets too rambunctious and there's a chance Cara (HD) will be hurt, I have grabbed a dog by the scruff and restrained  them from jumping on her. And I have forcefully reached in Jaia's mouth and taken a drumstick that he stole from B'asia away from him. 

Yes, I use force. I certainly don't insist that everyone should, but I don't see a thing wrong with it.  

FourIsCompany

Great points, DPU. I use force on my dogs all the time. I'm just not ashamed or embarrassed to do so. I also force them to stay on our property by use of a fence. And if we leave, I force them to wear a collar and lead. I force them to eliminate outside and I do force them to lie on the couch while I clip their nails. I force them to go to the vet, even though they would rather be in the pasture eating bunny poop. And I forced them to wear the dreaded Elizabethan collar and to be leashed to me for 2 weeks when they were recovering from various surgeries.

I also use physical force. I sometimes block their way and I even push on them with my leg, hold them still while I pull stickers out of their feet or remove cactus splines from their muzzle. When the play gets too rambunctious and there's a chance Cara (HD) will be hurt, I have grabbed a dog by the scruff and restrained  them from jumping on her. And I have forcefully reached in Jaia's mouth and taken a drumstick that he stole from B'asia away from him. 

 So do I. Everything you said I have also subjected by dogs to.

FourIsCompany

Yes, I use force. I certainly don't insist that everyone should, but I don't see a thing wrong with it.  

I wonder how it is done without any force at all?

and for the record I would alpha roll a dog just like Cesar does if the situation called for it. What situation might call for it? Well off the top of my head Hektor going after something in an aggressive manner. I have scruffed him a couple of times over bones, he wants Gunnar's and his and has gone after Gunnar a couple of times in order to take his bone, scruffing solved this problem. At this time I can give them both bones and Hektor will not bother Gunnar's.

I don't use the Alpha roll in a dominate way but I have forced Maze to the ground and held her there. But I had to, to break her concentration on attacking a small child. Had I not got her to the ground, she would have bitten the kid. I have also pinned her when she a puppy when she got to out of control and attacked me.. I almost ended up in the hospital for stitches because of a 2 month old puppy..

I use force everyday and I am head of this household. Maze is a member of this family as are the cats. Would I pin the cats? No. I value my arms.. Lol. But they now my rules and are rewarded for behaviors that I ask of them.

I say Maze has a dominate personality. And people ask me what I mean. In my eyes it means that she feels she has the ability to be head of the house as well as she needs to be center of the attention. I have scruffed her when she attacks the cats and yeah it may seem mean to an outsider but there is no other way to stop her. 

oranges81

I don't use the Alpha roll in a dominate way but I have forced Maze to the ground and held her there. But I had to, to break her concentration on attacking a small child. Had I not got her to the ground, she would have bitten the kid. I have also pinned her when she a puppy when she got to out of control and attacked me

And I agree that you did not dominate. In your case, it was a physical hold to immobilize. I'm not saying anything good or bad about, just that it was to hold the dog.

oranges81

I have scruffed her when she attacks the cats and yeah it may seem mean to an outsider but there is no other way to stop her. 

And more than a couple of times may mean that it is not stopping the behavior but that you are physically holding. She may even think it's part of a game. Or a non-event. That is, she doesn't fear you but views the scruff and hold as an evironmental factor to be dealt with. And who knows, she may never like cats, regardless of all the scruffs and treats in the world.

ron2

In your case, it was a physical hold to immobilize. I'm not saying anything good or bad about, just that it was to hold the dog.

Thanks for describing what an Alpha Roll is exactly 

 I was going to ask what the difference was...

ron2

And I agree that you did not dominate. In your case, it was a physical hold to immobilize.

 

The act of domination, in this case, would not be determined by the 'giver' regardless of her reason or intent, but by the 'receiver' Maze. I'm quite sure Maze did not reason that Orange was actually only trying to prevent an attack on a child and therefore it was not acting in a dominate fashion.  

In my situation I wasn't trying to be dominating, I was just trying to control her long enough to take care of the situation. In fact she wasn't even on her back, just pinned to the ground so I could get her concentration back on me.

I guess the difference is again in the eye of beholder.

And as for the cats. You're right.. She may never be completely trustworthy again with the cats and the scruffs were only for when she PHYSICALLY attacked the cats. Otherwise they play fine together and I haven't had a problem in a few weeks, 

FourIsCompany

 I was going to ask what the difference was...

Possibly the intent of the human. That is a human may think he's dominating with a scruff and pin but the dog may not view it as that. As Mech as pointed out, much of wolves do is a ritualized display with the "subordinate" one rolling underneath the alpha, rather than the alpha forcing the the one on his back. That is, one wolf doesn't force another to lower and roll for social position. The only time you might see a position like that in a fight is for the kill move. But in the documentaries I have seen, one wolf did not kill the other in the fight, though one did leave and died later from injuries.

So, even if one wanted to scruff and pin for the sake of social position, that's not what happens, per se. The best I ever accomplished with that move on Shadow was holding him in a position. It did nothing to stop the behavior and was not a cue. Another method worked better. And just to give a sense of size for others, Shadow is 26 inches to the shoulder and long. Standing on hind legs, he can put his paws on DW's shoulders and she's 5' 5 1/2" tall. And he weighs 65 lbs. So, I'm not talking about a Corgi or JRT. He's a fairly big dog.

I can see the use of a scruff and pin in an absolute emergency hold to prevent damage to another dog or person, as long as the person doing it realizes that they are at risk for a bite. In the case of an ACO, that's an every day risk, which is why many of them use a catch pole. Their job requires moving fast and right now, without a lot of time for finesse, for example, getting a dog out of a busy street. Using a catch pole is the lesser of two evils, the other being run over by a car or bus.

And I am aware that others here use it as a correction in training or management. And the dogs evidently accept it.

ron2

much of wolves do is a ritualized display with the "subordinate" one rolling underneath the alpha, rather than the alpha forcing the the one on his back. That is, one wolf doesn't force another to lower and roll for social position. The only time you might see a position like that in a fight is for the kill move. But in the documentaries I have seen, one wolf did not kill the other in the fight, though one did leave and died later from injuries.

Now, what we have said about comparing wolves with dogs? or the never ending "based on outdated wolves studies that have been proven wrong"?. It seems that some times the wolves studies are "outdated" and some other times not so much, depending on the bias

Where's the OP in this discussion?   Seems like ya all took the bait.

Thats sad that there are bait threads like this. I just wished to add my experience and opinion and get other people's views.