Alpha rolls and the dominance myth

ron2

And I am aware that others here use it as a correction in training or management. And the dogs evidently accept it.

Interesting way of putting it....in my case that is shelter dogs, rescue dogs, rescue cats, pet cats that were adopted by me, pet dogs, a rabbit and the dogs that come and stay here with me when my friends go on vacation.......correction means many different things.......you know my opinion and application of it......

Ron, I really appreciate your opinion and application of how to train your dog and make a good home life for Shadow and Jade.......but, I would like to see you in a situation like mine, DPU and many other folks who do what we do......that would be marvelous.....

luvmyswissy

Where's the OP in this discussion?   Seems like ya all took the bait.

Really? I don't think that is Edie's style. 

denise m

luvmyswissy

Where's the OP in this discussion?   Seems like ya all took the bait.

 

Really? I don't think that is Edie's style. 

Just an observation....

denise m

Really? I don't think that is Edie's style. 

Thanks Denise,it is not my style.

What prompted this Thread was that i saw for myself for the first time CM applying an alpha roll,before then i couldnt really comment as i wasnt exactly clear on what it was.

I knew that some members practice the roll and other dominance things on their dogs and i wasnt aware of either of the 2 links being posted here before,and to me,they made sound sense.And i was hoping the owners who practice these moves might find some sense in what was written in the articles  aswell.

The reason i havnt participated much in this thread is because i was made aware on page 1 that there are many other pages upon pages of similar type threads already posted,and i felt bad having dredged this up again. I should have posted the links on one of the ends of those threads.I didnt want to be responsible for a 30 page war,so was hoping this thread would die.

snownose

ron2

And I am aware that others here use it as a correction in training or management. And the dogs evidently accept it.

 

Interesting way of putting it....in my case that is shelter dogs, rescue dogs, rescue cats, pet cats that were adopted by me, pet dogs, a rabbit and the dogs that come and stay here with me when my friends go on vacation.......correction means many different things.......you know my opinion and application of it......

Ron, I really appreciate your opinion and application of how to train your dog and make a good home life for Shadow and Jade.......but, I would like to see you in a situation like mine, DPU and many other folks who do what we do......that would be marvelous.....

I thought I was being agreeable by saying some people use corrections and the dogs are okay with it. Was I wrong?

As for doing rescue work, I may do that someday. Right now, I can't really do that for several reasons. I have been working four 10's and two 8's a week and nearly worked today (Sunday). And I may not have the right temperment to rescue. By that, I mean the ability to care for a dog and then give him/her up. For that, I would probably seek the advice of others that do it a lot and see what viewpoints they have to achieve. Until then, I won't be able to have the honor of being a rescuer, so different and unique from the rest of the do-nothings, like me. I won't get that solar-powered halo and merit badge.

So, I might as well give my examples of trying to help so that they can be picked apart, as well. There is Tigrette, a cat that a co-worker and I rescued from a very busy street where people drive at least 10 mph over the speed limit. I broke company rules and made an unscheduled, unlogged stop to get her squared away. Or the time that same co-worker and I did some work at the Dallas SPCA and I broke the rules again and we waited for the place to open and walk through. That was the time the co-worker was trying to adopt Hauss (pronounced "Hoss";), a 90 lb Pit Bull that might as well have been named Marshmallow, with such a soft nature. I know that's not the same as taking in strange dogs of unknown backgrounds, some on "death row" but I do what I can, when I can. And I don't see how my deficiency in in-home dog rescue diminishes what my views are of how a dog is handled. Shadow had two options. Live with us or be taken to the shelter the next business day after Labor Day Weekend 2004, which has a 7 day euth schedule. But I guess I can't call that a rescue because I didn't sign for him with a rescue org or shelter.

Or Jade, whom I plucked out of a friend's tree, dehydrated and starving.

Or, my former cat, Misty, found on the very busy streets of Dallas, between the Oak Lawn area and Love Field Airport.

Or my Lab named Lady, whom I had in the mid 80's. I had moved to a place where I couldn't keep her and I had taken her to the Dallas Animal Shelter. A nice old gentleman walked in and saw the line. He was about to walk out and I struck up a conversation, going on instinct. He just wanted a friendly dog who could play with his grandchildren, etc. I said, "I have your dog." And it hurt like hell to do it, but I felt I had made the right choice.

Or, I just don't know anything. That's always a possiblity.

That's great. Have you ever had an aggressive dog who tried to kill another dog, bite another person, attack a child on a skateboard or bite you? Maybe or maybe not. I just wanted to point out that the dogs Cesar Milan deals with are many times problem dogs who have serious aggression issues.

Actually, more often, at least on the show, he seems to deal with what most trainers and behaviorists deal with...anxious dogs, dogs that don't know where they stand with the humans in the home, pushy dogs.  The number of truly "red zone" dogs is miniscule, and to be honest, some of the dogs described on the show as "red zone" really aren't.  And, the one thing I have come to understand in dealing with aggressive dogs is that being harsh usually backfires.  You might think you have successfully "cured" an aggressive dog by means of alpha rolling him, but all you have really done is changed the threshold at which he will aggress.  I prefer counter-conditioning.  Instead of just having a new "tipping point", you can change the dog's emotional response to the stimulus.

ron2

snownose

ron2

And I am aware that others here use it as a correction in training or management. And the dogs evidently accept it.

 

Interesting way of putting it....in my case that is shelter dogs, rescue dogs, rescue cats, pet cats that were adopted by me, pet dogs, a rabbit and the dogs that come and stay here with me when my friends go on vacation.......correction means many different things.......you know my opinion and application of it......

Ron, I really appreciate your opinion and application of how to train your dog and make a good home life for Shadow and Jade.......but, I would like to see you in a situation like mine, DPU and many other folks who do what we do......that would be marvelous.....

I thought I was being agreeable by saying some people use corrections and the dogs are okay with it. Was I wrong?

As for doing rescue work, I may do that someday. Right now, I can't really do that for several reasons. I have been working four 10's and two 8's a week and nearly worked today (Sunday). And I may not have the right temperment to rescue. By that, I mean the ability to care for a dog and then give him/her up. For that, I would probably seek the advice of others that do it a lot and see what viewpoints they have to achieve. Until then, I won't be able to have the honor of being a rescuer, so different and unique from the rest of the do-nothings, like me. I won't get that solar-powered halo and merit badge.

So, I might as well give my examples of trying to help so that they can be picked apart, as well. There is Tigrette, a cat that a co-worker and I rescued from a very busy street where people drive at least 10 mph over the speed limit. I broke company rules and made an unscheduled, unlogged stop to get her squared away. Or the time that same co-worker and I did some work at the Dallas SPCA and I broke the rules again and we waited for the place to open and walk through. That was the time the co-worker was trying to adopt Hauss (pronounced "Hoss";), a 90 lb Pit Bull that might as well have been named Marshmallow, with such a soft nature. I know that's not the same as taking in strange dogs of unknown backgrounds, some on "death row" but I do what I can, when I can. And I don't see how my deficiency in in-home dog rescue diminishes what my views are of how a dog is handled. Shadow had two options. Live with us or be taken to the shelter the next business day after Labor Day Weekend 2004, which has a 7 day euth schedule. But I guess I can't call that a rescue because I didn't sign for him with a rescue org or shelter.

Or Jade, whom I plucked out of a friend's tree, dehydrated and starving.

Or, my former cat, Misty, found on the very busy streets of Dallas, between the Oak Lawn area and Love Field Airport.

Or my Lab named Lady, whom I had in the mid 80's. I had moved to a place where I couldn't keep her and I had taken her to the Dallas Animal Shelter. A nice old gentleman walked in and saw the line. He was about to walk out and I struck up a conversation, going on instinct. He just wanted a friendly dog who could play with his grandchildren, etc. I said, "I have your dog." And it hurt like hell to do it, but I felt I had made the right choice.

Or, I just don't know anything. That's always a possiblity.

 

Wow.....where did this thread come from.....please......understand...any rescue effort is so much appreciated.......may it be a friend, a neighbor or even a family member.......or heck , even you........you are all appreciated.......

Just try to understand, it is very difficult at times to integrate rescue or shelter dogs......it can literally be a pain in the behind......

Ron, if I have offended you, I am deeply sorry........but, still, until you get into what I have been into like DPU or many other rescue folks, please don't compare your experience, it simply is not the same....no offense.....

The "Halo" statement is not necessary.....ok......bottom line....it's friggin hard work....that's it........can you accept that or do I need to get into what all can happen when crap goes wrong?

Remember, if you had a chance to see my addition "Bebe".....another added animal I had not planned on getting, but my relative, a Navy service member needed a home for his cat( he was shipping out).....so, I did what I could do.....almost 4 weeks later ....the cat is doing fine with 4 high prey drive dogs.......that didn't just happen over night.......trust me......and without a certain type of application......

snownose

Ron, if I have offended you, I am deeply sorry........but, still, until you get into what I have been into like DPU or many other rescue folks, please don't compare your experience, it simply is not the same....no offense.....

You brought up the rescue thing and how unique it is, yet again. All in response, I suppose, to me saying how I could understand how one might use a drastic technique in a drastic situation, which I don't think excluded what is necessary in rescue. Either as a person who fosters rescues or one who actually rescues from the street, itself.

But you had to, yet again, imply that I know nothing. Just because I was giving my viewpoint like anyone else and wasn't totally disagreeable. Perhaps, you must browbeat me simply on principle. Whatever I say must be wrong, even if I repeat something you said, simply because I said it. Because I dare to promote what I use, because I dare to steer away from CM, corrections based training, etc. Even though I admitted that the technique might be necessary in certain circumstances.

As for the halo, it's in response to the notion that I don't know anything because I have rescued dogs numbering more than one that we are trying to rehab for someone else. I'm not denigrating rescue work. I just don't appreciate the holier-than-thou thing because I don't have two or three rescues at home right now, so I can't possibly know what I am talking about on anything about dogs. In fact, I don't think the op mentioned rescue work. And it wasn't brought up by me, to my knowledge.

And if I was to rescue, I wouldn't be bringing on the corrections just because another rescuer uses them. I would probably get clickers with different tones, one for each animal.

I admire rescue work. I have no doubt it is arduous, difficult, expensive with a list of challenges. But why must I be an idiot just because I don't have 3 or 4 dogs right now?

ron2

snownose

Ron, if I have offended you, I am deeply sorry........but, still, until you get into what I have been into like DPU or many other rescue folks, please don't compare your experience, it simply is not the same....no offense.....

 

You brought up the rescue thing and how unique it is, yet again. All in response, I suppose, to me saying how I could understand how one might use a drastic technique in a drastic situation, which I don't think excluded what is necessary in rescue. Either as a person who fosters rescues or one who actually rescues from the street, itself.

But you had to, yet again, imply that I know nothing. Just because I was giving my viewpoint like anyone else and wasn't totally disagreeable. Perhaps, you must browbeat me simply on principle. Whatever I say must be wrong, even if I repeat something you said, simply because I said it. Because I dare to promote what I use, because I dare to steer away from CM, corrections based training, etc. Even though I admitted that the technique might be necessary in certain circumstances.

As for the halo, it's in response to the notion that I don't know anything because I have rescued dogs numbering more than one that we are trying to rehab for someone else. I'm not denigrating rescue work. I just don't appreciate the holier-than-thou thing because I don't have two or three rescues at home right now, so I can't possibly know what I am talking about on anything about dogs. In fact, I don't think the op mentioned rescue work. And it wasn't brought up by me, to my knowledge.

And if I was to rescue, I wouldn't be bringing on the corrections just because another rescuer uses them. I would probably get clickers with different tones, one for each animal.

I admire rescue work. I have no doubt it is arduous, difficult, expensive with a list of challenges. But why must I be an idiot just because I don't have 3 or 4 dogs right now?

 

Wow, and you came up with all this from the little snippet out of my post you copied and pasted?

Please, get a hold of yourself.......I am not saying you don't have a clue when it comes to owning a dog......what I am saying is, you don't have a clue when it comes to owning more difficult rescue dogs....that's all........and yes some dogs are difficult enough to have to use noise aversion....a big "No, No" in your eyes......click away........

spiritdogs

That's great. Have you ever had an aggressive dog who tried to kill another dog, bite another person, attack a child on a skateboard or bite you? Maybe or maybe not. I just wanted to point out that the dogs Cesar Milan deals with are many times problem dogs who have serious aggression issues.

Actually, more often, at least on the show, he seems to deal with what most trainers and behaviorists deal with...anxious dogs, dogs that don't know where they stand with the humans in the home, pushy dogs.  The number of truly "red zone" dogs is miniscule, and to be honest, some of the dogs described on the show as "red zone" really aren't.  And, the one thing I have come to understand in dealing with aggressive dogs is that being harsh usually backfires.  You might think you have successfully "cured" an aggressive dog by means of alpha rolling him, but all you have really done is changed the threshold at which he will aggress.  I prefer counter-conditioning.  Instead of just having a new "tipping point", you can change the dog's emotional response to the stimulus.

I want to re-emphasize this. I've certainly watched less DW shows than some people, but of the shows I've see (maybe half of season 1) the dogs in question were rarely seriously aggressive. Untrained, neurotic, indulged ... yes.

I find Ed Frawley's comments on aggressive dogs and alpha rolls to be worth considering (you have to scroll down): http://www.leerburg.com/dominac2.htm

*shrug* That's why I tend to say that if you can safely alpha roll a dog, you can accomplish the same ends through different means. And if you misjudge a dog or a moment, the potential for badness is very high. Human faces are delicate.

When we were working with Ivan, we took the approach of "never pick a fight you can't win." We obedience trained, and we managed the environment. We used leash corrections, in a limited and specific way that he understood. Crazy and dangerous Ivan was one of the best performing dogs in our advanced obedience class. But if ANYONE had ever tried to roll that boy .... there would have been blood. There is a difference between an unruly, untrained dog and a dog who is willing to use serious aggression. You can get away with alpha rolling the first, but not the second.

snownose

what I am saying is, you don't have a clue when it comes to owning more difficult rescue dogs

At least I know now where I don't have a clue. I was getting confused.

snownose

and yes some dogs are difficult enough to have to use noise aversion....a big "No, No" in your eyes......click away........

I don't recall having a problem with noise aversion. In fact, I thought I saw it as environmental punishment, a rather "positive" thing to do. I think I even accused you of being a closet positive trainer because of it. Perhaps that is what got on your nerve. I admire that you have been able to use the singing water bowl and referred to it when you said it would be interesting to see me handle the rescue dogs, I assume, similar to what you have.

Then, again, I might pay good money to see you scruff and pin one of them dogs.

ron2

Then, again, I might pay good money to see you scruff and pin one of them dogs.

Actually, this is not in my protocol.....you, actually, have no clue of what is going on......do you honestly think that I have to scruff and pin?

Ron, please, get a life and understand how things are done.........thank you..........

Actually, why don't you clip your dog's nails?

I was wondering about that.....Shadow's nails needed to be clipped a long time ago........are you scared?

I haven't read ALL of the responses to this thread, but my issue with alpha rolls remains that I don't really understand what it is and what it's for, so I've never been able to say yay/nay.  I always thought an alpha roll was the human quickly using physical force to roll the dog.  I don't do that, but there have been one or two times I have verbally corrected Kenya or gave a stern "no!" along with a tap on the collar and she has laid down and rolled over for me.  Generally when this happens I feel I have accomplished nothing because the dog is showing me submission when I really wanted something else (stop jumping on me and hurting me, stop getting in the cat's face, etc).  Honestly, I have no clue if that's an "alpha roll" or not b/c I've never seen a simple definition of the term.  I do know several people who have been rescuing German Shepherds for years and run local breed rescues, and do not use alpha rolls, so I cannot believe that they are necessary when dealing with "damaged" dogs, simply that it is one option....whatever it really is...

Liesje

I haven't read ALL of the responses to this thread, but my issue with alpha rolls remains that I don't really understand what it is and what it's for, so I've never been able to say yay/nay.  I always thought an alpha roll was the human quickly using physical force to roll the dog.  I don't do that, but there have been one or two times I have verbally corrected Kenya or gave a stern "no!" along with a tap on the collar and she has laid down and rolled over for me.  Generally when this happens I feel I have accomplished nothing because the dog is showing me submission when I really wanted something else (stop jumping on me and hurting me, stop getting in the cat's face, etc).  Honestly, I have no clue if that's an "alpha roll" or not b/c I've never seen a simple definition of the term.  I do know several people who have been rescuing German Shepherds for years and run local breed rescues, and do not use alpha rolls, so I cannot believe that they are necessary when dealing with "damaged" dogs, simply that it is one option....whatever it really is...

Honestly, sweetie....haven't you had your run at a rescue, and you felt and found out that was too much?

Don't worry about the easy dogs.....concentrate on the hard dogs........they are around....and I have seen them ........ack......hard as can be......but, they still need a home.......