terrible dog attack

AuroraLove

Mark-Since you seem to only know about the bad, here is some of the THOUSANDS of good being done everyday.

Please do not assume that I only know about the bad!  As I have stated I am very aware that there is good in this breed and that many are trying to change the image that this breed currently has.  I applaud and support those efforts but I also know that those efforts pale beside the efforts of those that are working to make this breed even more aggressive and are continuing the "bad" image of this breed! 

Mark

Marklf

but I also know that those efforts pale beside the efforts of those that are working to make this breed even more aggressive

How?

AuroraLove

Marklf

So just what type of reform do you advocate? 

I've posted my proposal on how to help the situation, ie licensing, registration, mandatory spay/nueter above in detail. Maybe you missed it,

It seems that you can type faster then me and that while I am typing a response you manage to get more info out there!  Yes I have now seen your proposal and have to wonder why you seem to think that you and I are in disagreement?  Those are the the type of BSL's that may actually do some good!

Marklf

Marklf

 

AuroraLove

Mark-Since you seem to only know about the bad, here is some of the THOUSANDS of good being done everyday.

 

Please do not assume that I only know about the bad!  As I have stated I am very aware that there is good in this breed and that many are trying to change the image that this breed currently has.  I applaud and support those efforts but I also know that those efforts pale beside the efforts of those that are working to make this breed even more aggressive and are continuing the "bad" image of this breed! 

Mark

So whats your point to all of this? I've given you (a complete stranger) my opinion, education, experiences and love for the breed yet you continue to swear you dont hate the breed but keep putting me in a position of defense. I'm guess I'm not sure what your expecting me to say? If you think any of us are gonna give up thats laughable so humor me and let me know what your seeking. I've told you I'm very well aware of the issue at hand and I'm not portraying the APBT as happy butterfly chasing lovabull creatures.....despite the fact that MY dogs are eceptionally well behaved due to MY efforts

Benedict

Marklf

but I also know that those efforts pale beside the efforts of those that are working to make this breed even more aggressive

(emphasis mine)

How?

If you are asking how do the efforts to encourage "responsible" ownership and breeding of these dogs pale beside the efforts to make the breed even more aggressive and perpetuate it "bad" image, that is easy.  The average person is totally unaware of the efforts to improve this breed but they are exposed all the time to the "glamor" of the of the "gansta" image and that includes aggressive pit bulls.  It is also a sad fact that dog fighting is alive and well and too many are breeding and training pits for the ring.

Mark

That story is horrible!!  I truly hope the man will be okay, but unfortunately, in my experience, when a limb is amputated at or near the age he is, they usually go downhill from there :( 

I have a few comments about the discussion going on.  I agree with not selling or not allowing dogs to be sold to thugs and whatnot, but how would the government or stores or even private breeders regulate this?  I think there would be quite an uproar with discrimination (although it may not be discriminating them at all)  Please don't get me wrong, I agree, I just don't know if it would be possible to do.

And I have to say lol AuroraLove, although your two babies look verrrry adoreable, and I have seen the videos of them and how sweet and trained they are, I think if I saw one of them or both, I would probably go the other way hehe.  But I am a big scaredy cat over some large dogs (i was attacked by a rottweiler when I was younger and can't go near them at all) so larger "tough" looking dogs scare the crap out of me! hehe

I do wish, though, that even here, they had something in place about the wrong people owning certain dogs.  I mean, Now, here Pit Bulls in public have to wear muzzles, and from what it looks like, the people who put the muzzles on their dogs are the responsible ones, having this law doesn't stop the irresponsible people.

I will give you an example (please take no offence!)  Here (in Ontario) as far as I know they have passed a bill about registering guns.  They said ALL guns must be registered, but the only people who are registering them are the proper gun owners, who have gun licences and who have taken courses and such, of course the "other" people (ie. the thugs) who are not supposed to have them won't register them.  So I think it is rather a silly bill to pass.  If that makes sense. 

What I am getting at (slowly but surely) is that you can pass all the laws you want, but you will come to find that the only people who will follow them are not the ones who make the laws necessary

No, I'm asking how you "know" this.  What makes it a fact?

AuroraLove

So whats your point to all of this? I've given you (a complete stranger) my opinion, education, experiences and love for the breed yet you continue to swear you dont hate the breed but keep putting me in a position of defense.

How am I putting you on the defense????  I in fact agree with some of your proposal!!!  I am NOT arguing with you!!!!!!  YOU are not who I consider to be the problem!!!! 

Mark

Benedict

No, I'm asking how you "know" this.  What makes it a fact?

Oh that is even easier!  I see it on a daily basis!  Heck Michal Vick is a "home town hero" here and his brother is still getting himself into jams here!  It is a common site to see the Pit bulls with their "bling" on being paraded down the streets!  Everyday the paper has many many Pitts advertised and our local shelter is full of them!  The "status" of having a tough pitt bull has caught on and is driving the breeding of these dogs!

Mark

Marklf

Benedict

No, I'm asking how you "know" this.  What makes it a fact?

Oh that is even easier!  I see it on a daily basis!  Heck Michal Vick is a "home town hero" here and his brother is still getting himself into jams here!  It is a common site to see the Pit bulls with their "bling" on being paraded down the streets!  Everyday the paper has many many Pitts advertised and our local shelter is full of them!  The "status" of having a tough pitt bull has caught on and is driving the breeding of these dogs!

 

Mark

OK...but I fail to see how that makes it something you "know" and not just something you "believe".  It's not a fact that the "bad pit" owners are working harder, or are more influential, than the "good pit" owners....it's an opinion, one based on the fact that bad pits get more press.  The "good pit" owners are working their butts off behind the scenes, but it doesn't make for great copy.

Marklf

AuroraLove

The better question is why as tax payers are we spending money on BSL instead of enforcing and prosecuting irresponsible owners so this dosnt happen. Now responsible Pit Bull owners in that town, county and state are going to have to be subjected to ridicule from the public.

 Is it finally time to recognize that this breed may not be the harmless lovable breed some like to portray it as?  Is it time to acknowledge that this breed attracts too many owners that want a "vicious" dog?  Will we now admit that too many of this breed are being bred for their aggressive traits (including human aggression)?   Have we gotten to the point where "responsible Pit Bull owners" are becoming the exception rather then the rule?

 Mark

Mark I KNOW this is not the popular answer but in my corner of the world more idiots own Pits than responsible folks. The stories I could but wont tell. It is NOT the Breed it is the Breeders and owners that will damage this breed more than anything else in the world.

Bonita of Bwana

I'll see if I can make it simple for you.

You say you know there's good about the breed but your first statement out of the gate is an implication that the breed is bad. Only later, do you try and clarify. Any breed can be improved. Did you know that the stats show that pit bites are actually at the bottom of the list? Labs and Siberian Huskies lead the list, in that order. But you only show up when the dog or dogs involved might be pit bulls, kind of like the media. Seriously, I haven't seen a post from you in more months than I can remember but along comes a thread about a pit bull attack and here you are. I say that to show how there might be a reason why people get defensive when you post. Because it's never anything but about what's wrong with Pit Bulls.

The responsible owners are working hard. The gangstas are doing their thing. But remember the media rule, "if it bleeds, it leads." Banning the breed will not help. Proper breeding ethics, as practiced by responsible owners, already exist. Thugs don't follow those rules and you can't make them. The solution is to incarcerate or euthanize thugs. It's cheaper to do the latter but we have rules in society so we strive to do the former. The problem is not with the breed, it is with the bad owners and the media's gusto for gore. How is it, if pit bulls are so bad, they lag way behind Labs and Sibes in bites? I have watched the Dog Whisperer many times. He has never once been bitten by a Pit Bull, including the one he pinned and rolled. But he has been bitten by a Malamute and a Chihuahua a Shih Tzu (I think). How does that stack up against the darkened image of the Pit Bull? If we're going to talk about dog bites, let's talk about all of them.

ETA:

Case in point. There is another thread in this section. A woman was killed by her own dogs while allegedly breaking up a fight amongst the dogs. One was a Golden Retriever mix and the other was an Aussie-mix. Or is it not politically popular or media-savvy to talk about the problems with Goldens and Aussies?

ron2

I'll see if I can make it simple for you.

You say you know there's good about the breed but your first statement out of the gate is an implication that the breed is bad.

Lets see just what my first statement was;

"Is it finally time to recognize that this breed may not be the harmless lovable breed some like to portray it as?  "

Well if one would read what i wrote they would see that is NOT a statement at all but rather a question!  I will make it simple for you also, if it ends in a question mark then it is a question not a statement! 

ron2

Did you know that the stats show that pit bites are actually at the bottom of the list?

Unfortunately they are at the top of the list for fatal dog bites in this country!

ron2

But you only show up when the dog or dogs involved might be pit bulls, kind of like the media. Seriously, I haven't seen a post from you in more months than I can remember but along comes a thread about a pit bull attack and here you are. I say that to show how there might be a reason why people get defensive when you post. Because it's never anything but about what's wrong with Pit Bulls.

Well I think you have me mistaken for someone else!!!  Not sure how haven't seen a post from me for more months then you can remember???  I have only been a member on this forum for just under 2 months!!!!!  This is the first thread about pit bulls that I have posted on!!!!  Either you have me mistaken for some other poster or I have no clue as to what you are talking about!  I do not dislike pit bulls but I do recognize that they are capable of causing great harm and that their image as a "bad" dog is too often deserved.

ron2

The responsible owners are working hard.

I agree!  But their efforts are mostly know to dog enthusiast not to the average person.

ron2

The gangstas are doing their thing. But remember the media rule, "if it bleeds, it leads." Banning the breed will not help.

Once again I will say that I have NOT called for the banning of ANY breed of dog!!!!!

ron2

Proper breeding ethics, as practiced by responsible owners, already exist. Thugs don't follow those rules and you can't make them.

The number of "ethical" breeders of pit bulls compared to the number of actual breeders of pit bull is extremely tiny!!  Obviously they will not be enough of them to overcome the problems that are occuring within this breed.

ron2

The problem is not with the breed, it is with the bad owners and the media's gusto for gore. How is it, if pit bulls are so bad, they lag way behind Labs and Sibes in bites?

Sorry but they are far ahead of labs and Sibes in fatal bites!!!

ron2

I have watched the Dog Whisperer many times. He has never once been bitten by a Pit Bull, including the one he pinned and rolled. But he has been bitten by a Malamute and a Chihuahua a Shih Tzu (I think). How does that stack up against the darkened image of the Pit Bull?

Read some of his books and you will see that he talks at length about the problems associated with this breed.  Yes most of those problem are caused by humans but that does not change the fact that there are problems.

ron2

How does that stack up against the darkened image of the Pit Bull? If we're going to talk about dog bites, let's talk about all of them.

 Did you even read the story that started this thread?  The dogs were literaly ripping chunks out of this 90 year old man and eating him!  That does not quite compare to getting bit by a Chihuahua!!

Mark

Marklf

ron2

Did you know that the stats show that pit bites are actually at the bottom of the list?

Unfortunately they are at the top of the list for fatal dog bites in this country!

Where are these statistics from? I'm wondering if "pit bull" means APBT, SBT, am staffs, american bulldogs, bull terriers, dogos, presas, etc etc individually, or collectively?

Marklf

Well if one would read what i wrote they would see that is NOT a statement at all but rather a question!  I will make it simple for you also, if it ends in a question mark then it is a question not a statement

Classic. I was only asking, "innocently." I'll try and simplify it further. Either you don't know what you are doing, or you do. Some questions are rhetorical. Some are purely designed to elicit a response, such as if someone wanted to come in and stir things up.

Is the Pit Bull a strong dog, a dog like any other dogs with ability to do damage and great things and is amplified by their work ethic and even moreso, amplified by their portrayal in the media? Yes. Do we have thug owners here? No. Do we have responsible, educated owners here with absolutely fine dogs that are more rock solid than my dog? Yes. So, exactly what kind of response were you expecting with your "question"? Let me try this from the other angle. Adults sometimes mean more than one thing with a statement. That is, a question, phrased a certain way, implies or means something than can, at times, be more of a statement than an actual question. That is what is often meant by a rhetorical question. For example, I can ask, "Isn't time we quit buying oil from OPEC?" That's rhetorical. The question implies my opinion that we should not buy from them but it is in the form of a question, as opposed to just making a shouting statement. But the opinion is there, nevertheless.

Maybe you already know this but it occured to me that you might not.

As for the "problem" with Pit Bulls, it used to be the "problem" with Doberman Pinchers, the "problem" with Rottweilers.

Marklf

but I do recognize that they are capable of causing great harm and that their image as a "bad" dog is too often deserved.

Perhaps I have you confused with another user id. I will momentarily concede that. But this statement is unfounded opinion. They do not deserve the bad dog rep. You mentioned fatal bites or attacks. The 90 year old man is still alive. The 74 year old woman, who's dogs were not Pits is dead.

I don't remember now where I found the source of stats I quoted and I may have to find it. I did not make it up. And imagine my surprise, initially, to find my favorite breed near the top of the list. I don't own a Pit Bull, do not have any plans to own one, and it has nothing to do with the bad rep.

As for Millan, granted the Chi bite left a mark on his hand and the Malamute bite left lacerations in his arm. And yes a larger dog can produce more damage simply by having a larger mouth. But it ignores the fact that, at least what he shows on t.v., the Pit Bulls have been less prone to bite, or more exactly, bite a human, than other breeds would bite a human. But that would get back to you can't always believe an edited show. BTW, news programs and services are edited, too.

Marklf

Did you even read the story that started this thread?  The dogs were literaly ripping chunks out of this 90 year old man and eating him!  That does not quite compare to getting bit by a Chihuahua

Yes, I did read the story. A bite is a bite, regardless of breed. A larger dog can produce a larger bite because of having a larger mouth. I'm aware of that. That doesn't mean the larger dog is more prone to attack than the smaller breed.

As for stubbornness, I can outlast you, if I desire. The problem is not the breed. It is humans. The actual breed temperment of the terrier group that includes what is commonly called Pit Bull is known for their affection to humans. They can actually be easier to train than Sibes. PBs are people pleasers. Sibes are independent and can be aloof or skiddish at times.

What is unbalanced is the media coverage of responsible owners and PBs that have been heros and ambassadors of good will versus thugs and thug wannabes. Any real solution involves education. But, you can lead a human to information but you can make him think it. And if the PB were outlawed tomorrow and completely banished and erased from our society, including the responsible owners, the thugs would pick another breed the same day and make it the "tough" thug dog and we would still be having this discussion but we might be saying Lab instead of Pit Bull.

Also, in case you didn't know, Pit Bull is not actually a breed. But there are variations of the Staffordshire and American Staffordshire Terriers that have been mixed with a breed or two elsewhere that have resulted in what most people call a Pit Bull.