terrible dog attack

Ok so maybe we got off on the wrong foot. To clarify

-I do not believe the true APBT is inherantly a companion animal in comparison to a toy breed however that is why the love from one is all the greater when you form that bond

-I dont believe the APBT is a dog for any beginner or novice owner however I do believe with proper training, exercise, and guidance they can flourish and be as peaceful as any other breed.

-I believe from experience that the APBT can live happy, peaceful lives in modern society and to label vicous as a whole is doing a huge diservice to all canines

Mark, we obviously know nothing about eachothers backgrounds and experiences but I respectively would like to say your first post insinuated a rash and unrealistic approach to the pit bull problem.

I want to take this time to apologize for my hasty reply and to let you know that I am a responsible APBT owner and am not blind to the growing issues at ahnd with ALL breeds but this breed in particular.

My family used to use them for boar hunting so I am very well aware of their capabilites but that dosnt make them any less of a loving creature in my eyes.

I'm

I just wanted to say I hope that gentleman is doing OK   And that the owners get punished severely and banned from keeping dogs for life. 

AuroraLove

I do not believe the true APBT is inherantly a companion animal in comparison to a toy breed however that is why the love from one is all the greater when you form that bond

Would you support efforts to change this dog, through selective breeding, so that it is more suitable for being a "companion" breed?

AuroraLove

I dont believe the APBT is a dog for any beginner or novice owner however I do believe with proper training, exercise, and guidance they can flourish and be as peaceful as any other breed.

Would you support regulating ownership of these dogs to prevent them from being owned by "novice" owners?

AuroraLove

I believe from experience that the APBT can live happy, peaceful lives in modern society and to label vicous as a whole is doing a huge diservice to all canines

Do you think that there is a need for ANY regulation of this breed in order to insure that it does live a "happy and peaceful" life in todays society?

AuroraLove

Mark, we obviously know nothing about eachothers backgrounds and experiences but I respectively would like to say your first post insinuated a rash and unrealistic approach to the pit bull problem.

Pleas go re-read that post, I did not insinuate anything I just asked questions!  It appears that some of my questions may have hit a nerve or two but they are still valid questions.

AuroraLove

I want to take this time to apologize for my hasty reply and to let you know that I am a responsible APBT owner and am not blind to the growing issues at ahnd with ALL breeds but this breed in particular.

No apology needed!!!!  I understand you are passionate about this breed but please understand that if the "responsible" owners like yourself do not offer a solution for the problems that are associated with this breed then others who are not fond of this breed will end up imposing their "solutions" on all!!! 

AuroraLove

My family used to use them for boar hunting so I am very well aware of their capabilites but that dosnt make them any less of a loving creature in my eyes.

I doubt the boars share your love of them! (just kidding)  Seriously this is a breed that although it can be loving it can also be very dangerous!  Those that ignore the dangerous side of them(not saying you do) are doing just as much a disservice to the breed as those that just focus on the negative traits!

Mark

Benedict

 Then please clarify what you mean by "facing facts"...what would that entail, in your view?

Sorry but could you clarify which post I used that phrase so that I can explain it better?  I took a quick look back over my posts but I must have missed it.

Mark

The popularity and availability of this breed is what is killing it. You can pick up PB's cheap. Here in Albuquerque they are advertised in the paper weekly and most always they are under $500 with many being $150.

 The gangsters love them here and unfortuantly they tend to like them mean.

 If they could buy Fila's or Dogo's or Preso's or Cane's or other large bully type breeds they would do the same thing to them. If I had a dime for every time some punk in baggy pants and gang collars asked me where I got my "Huge Pit Bull" I could retire a lot sooner.

 It scare me to death to think of some of these punks getting their hands on some of the breeds that just might put some of these PB attacks to shame with the severity of the attack. How many remember the lady attacked in NY a few years ago by the Preso's? If you think the PB's are being ruined by these type of owners just wait until they get their hands on some Fila's who are well know for their dislike of strangers, or Dogo's who are built with the powerful jaws and tenacity of a pit but weigh 90-105 lbs?

 I wish I had a solution, but I do not. Those who truly love the breed and want to perserve it should charge a lot for their puppies. Maybe that will deter the punks from getting their hands on them.

I do not believe ANYTHING needs to be changed temperment wise about the APBT.

But with that said I feel that strict spay/nueter laws should be implemented. Ideally (with some magic money grant, LOL) I would wish to see any non working, conformation, or sports proven APBT to be spayed/nuetered. In a ideal world I would love to see them bred back to standard, meaning back to being athletes of 35-60lbs instead of these 100lbs monsters that are being passed off as pit bulls today. The decline of the breed standard in regards to size is a direct link to the growing number of irresponsible breeders. For example the boom of the Razors Edge line boasting bulky heads and massive strucutre just so happens to be the turn of the decline of the breeds reputation. This is a continous waging war between real APBT enthusiausts and the bully style breeders. Any breeder boasting those qualities has no ethics and are evidently not breeding for temperment.

My point is proven with the American Staffordshire Terriers. They are the same dog, from the same stock, same temperments but they are not over bred thus they are not exploited and used for unsavory purposes. You cant open your local pennysaver and find a Staffie for $25 but they are basically the same dog.

As for them being dangerous......so are most working dogs if you are judging on the same scale. Rotties, Dobies, German Shepherds, Fila Brasilio's, Dogo's, and Cane Corso's. However their number are extremely fewer and the breeding circle tighter so obviously the number of attacks are fewer. Funny that out of all the dogs listed (and I love them all) the APBT is the smallest and one of the only NOT bred for protection or human aggression so it just goes to show that irresponsible breeding is where the blame should be placed.

Have you ever visited a Pit Bull forum? It is HORRID. I've begged with people to not breed their pit bulls but its liek they are all in a pissin contest to make something bigger and badder. Inner city indviduals have literally told me that since guns are illegal they are going to breed a pit bull. When you tell them pit bulls are not protection dogs they say they feed them gun powder to make them crazy. They chain them up and starve them to make them mean.........thats a lot just to make a dog mean. But the reason is they cant go buy or train a proper guard dog due to their poverty. Its horrible

The "facing facts" in my own post was in quotations to indicate that I don't believe certain aspects of this to be facts at all - not a quote from you.  However, this is the quote that inspired the question:

Marklf

Is it finally time to recognize that this breed may not be the harmless lovable breed some like to portray it as?

Perhaps I could have more accurately phrased it as:  What does that recognition entail, to you, that is not already in effect by responsible owners and breeders and lovers of APBTs?  That's the audience who need to be reached because that's the audience that has the power and will to make a difference.  The people responsible for being irresponsible with regards to this breed won't be changed.  IMO, it's easier to rehab a vicious dog than it is to rehab a vicious owner - but that's a whole new thread.  So again, my question is, what - in your opinion - should be done that is not already being done? 

dgriego

 I wish I had a solution, but I do not. Those who truly love the breed and want to perserve it should charge a lot for their puppies. Maybe that will deter the punks from getting their hands on them.

That would certainly deter them from getting a well bred pup, but I think it would open up a whole new 'Trend' market for the not so well bred ones.  And that already exists to some extent.  Besides, the more you pay for Bling in a gang, the bigger you look, dogs would be the same thing.  

How about putting socialization classes into a contract for every Bully.  Personally, I'd like to see it with every breed, but this seems to be a breed specific discussion.  This might not have much of an effect on the true thugs that want big mean dogs, but it may help with the ones that are just owned by people that don't know better.  Imagine if every Pit Bull owner that ever said,"I never saw it coming" was forced to learn what could happen without the proper training.

I think the best solution would to have a yearly fee that would be hefty enough to discourage irresponsible people but cheap enough so thats its reasonable. For example if every problem breed owner had to pay a yearly $500 fee to register their dogs then that money could go to enforcing the law. Any dog not shown wearing proper identification could be subjected to being taken away. Basically the dog tag would say "I'm a responsbile owner".  I would have no problem paying and registering my dogs. I already spy/nueter my dogs despite Rory's impressive lineage.

People who dont have the money for the fee earn their tags through volunteering for public awarness and education on the breed thus socializing the dog and getting involved in the community. Or they could hold fundraisers which gets the community involved as well.

If we did this in conjunction with the mandatory spay/nueter for non proven dogs I think it would be a start in the right direction. Its already been proven that BSL does NOT work at all and actually makes the irresponsible breeding worse.

Benedict

Perhaps I could have more accurately phrased it as:  What does that recognition entail, to you, that is not already in effect by responsible owners and breeders and lovers of APBTs?

The problem that I see is that "responsible" owners and breeders refuse to admit there is a problem!!!  Constantly claiming that this breed is "loving and harmless" or "non human aggresive" gives people that are not that familiar with the breed the idea that this is a good breed for them even though they are not experienced enough to deal with this breed!  It also hurts the credibility of those that make such claims when people are continuosly reading about the attacks that this breed is involved in!  Instead of denying that there is a problem with the breed wouldn't it make more sense to advocate regulation of the ownership for this breed?

Mark

Marklf

 

The problem that I see is that "responsible" owners and breeders refuse to admit there is a problem!!!  Constantly claiming that this breed is "loving and harmless" or "non human aggresive" gives people that are not that familiar with the breed the idea that this is a good breed for them even though they are not experienced enough to deal with this breed!  It also hurts the credibility of those that make such claims when people are continuosly reading about the attacks that this breed is involved in!  Instead of denying that there is a problem with the breed wouldn't it make more sense to advocate regulation of the ownership for this breed?

Mark

Thats odd becasue I see the complete opposite. I either see someone who feels the way I do, that serious reform needs to be made or a complete ignorant person thinking their dogs is "bad a**" and bigger is better.

There is SO much work being doen to better the breed and since it seems that your so passionate about this topic I'm surprised you don't know more about it. Are you aware of PBRC or any of the organizations that strive to advocate the breed? Its sad to see that most people are informed about all the bad being done by the breed but not the good......thats not to say I'm denying their often inherant nature but since I'm involved I see a lot more good then the general public.

The only people I see ignoring the problem at hand are kennels and rescue groups who just say things to appease potential adoptees into taking a pit bull home. PBRC.net has wonderful printable brochures for potential adopders of pit bulls that tries to let them know what they are getting themselves into. I and many other responsible owners try and get those spread around as best we can.

As a responsible pit bull owner I dont take my dogs to the dog park past 6 months of age yet prefer to set up doggy play dates with other stable dogs.

My motto is a tired dog is a good dog and I soend countless hours with my dogs running, biking, hiking, swimming and skateboarding and redirecting any potentially negative behavior.

The APBT should be heavily socialized, trained and should strive to obtain their CGC award. Its pretty common to see stable happy APBT's in public if you keep eye out.

Mark-Since you seem to only know about the bad, here is some of the THOUSANDS of good being done everyday.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/pospress.php

http://saveabull.com/2008/pitbull-heroes/

http://www.pbrc.net/

http://justiceonceandforall.ning.com/group/postivepitbullpress/forum/topic/show?id=2027198%3ATopic%3A9329

Pit Bulls also excel at flyball, agility and dock diving. They peacefully attend rallys, off lead with many other dogs running around

http://www.teamtriplethreat.net/sponsors.htm

Pit Bulls serve as therapy dogs

http://www.pitbulllovers.com/training-articles/therapy-dogs-pit-bulls.html

Pit Bulls as police dogs

http://www.lawdogsusa.org/home.html

I could go on and on. It just goes to show the love of the breed is far greater then the disdain. So lastly, what is your argument for the fact that the American Staffordshire Terrier being of the same dog and blood of the APBT but the problems are less greater with the latter breed?

But with all this aside and as mentioned before this tragic incident could have been easily avoided.

The article clearly states that the dogs were reported numerous times to be running loose. A key sign this is not a responsible owner. Nor a responsible local AC. This owner should have been cited and stricter penalties should have been enforced for their negligience and if not for the safety of the dogs. It really dosnt sound like they are the type of owners who take leisurely walks with the dogs or practice healthy habits.

We live in a society where nothing is done until something tragic happens. How come the dogs had never attacked before? What was so differnet this time? I can almost bet they were unaltered males also.

AuroraLove

Thats odd becasue I see the complete opposite. I either see someone who feels the way I do, that serious reform needs to be made

Funny that even though you feel that serious reform is needed you initially became very defensive when you read my initial post!  You have also posted that you do not feel that "ANYTHING needs to be changed temperment wise about the APBT".  So just what type of reform do you advocate? 

AuroraLove

There is SO much work being doen to better the breed and since it seems that your so passionate about this topic I'm surprised you don't know more about it. Are you aware of PBRC or any of the organizations that strive to advocate the breed?

Yes I am familar with PBRC!  Although I do not agree with all that they have to say I commend their efforts on this issue.  The problem is there is FAR MORE work being done to turn this breed into a vicious breed then is being what the efforts of organizations like PBRC are able to counter

.

AuroraLove

Its sad to see that most people are informed about all the bad being done by the breed but not the good......thats not to say I'm denying their often inherant nature but since I'm involved I see a lot more good then the general public.

Please do not assume that I am unaware of the "good" in this breed!  I have had lots of "good" expeiences with them and some that were not so good!  I have owned pit-xs and have known many of these dogs over the years. But that does not blind me to the fact that there are serious issues with this breed.

AuroraLove

The only people I see ignoring the problem at hand are kennels and rescue groups who just say things to appease potential adoptees into taking a pit bull home.

Funny thing is that is exactly where many people that want to own these daogs get there info from!  Those are also some of the people that my initial post was aimed at!

Mark

Marklf

So just what type of reform do you advocate? 

I've posted my proposal on how to help the situation, ie licensing, registration, mandatory spay/nueter above in detail. Maybe you missed it,