terrible dog attack

ottoluv

It's like castrating all men because a few are rapists. The truth is that most are great husbands, brothers, fathers...........

great analogy.  I completely agree.

I don't want to add to this debate.  But if you think a PB is worse than a lab you need to see the black lab across the street from me.  He is vicious and makes sure everyone knows it.  

Exaclty my point. Trying to convince people that pit bulls, labs and chihuahuas and pomeranians all would do the same amount of damage once they attack makes pit bull defenders look stupid.

? I wasn't insinuating that at all. I was making an offhand point that a small dog does have the ability to cause a great deal of damage to a small or weak person, because someone had implied that an aggressive chihuahua isn't a big deal.

 The pit-bull type can mean any mix of pit bulls who look like pit bulls (or indeed any mix of anything that looks like a pit bull). While there may not be a huge number of Amstaffs, there are certainly a *huge* number of pit mixes. Can you say for certain that it was the "pit bull" in these dogs that caused them to be dangerous? No.
 

How many of these "pit bull type" dog bites are actual pit bulls (i.e. american pit bull terriers) versus any mishmash of mutts? We have no idea. Everyone's definition of a "pit bull type" varies.

It is useless to base any ideas about behavior on such statistics. 

There are only about 1700 Am Staffs registered per year.

Ah....but how many unregistered ones do you think are floating around out there? I'm willing to bet a good deal more than that number. Not everyone registers their dogs, in fact in many places few do. Especially (and unfortunately) when it comes to the "rough and tumble type" dogs who are all too commonly picked up by owners who want to make them into something else.

These discussions can be a bit draining and in light of the holiday I just wanna say that I'm glad we can talk openly and debate about our different views here on the forum while remaining civil. Even if some people dont agree with me I appreciate everyones input.

The people whom I may disagree with make up large number of the country's opinion and is a reality nonetheless.

I will always strive to fight for ANY breed and share my bed with my two loving APBT's.

ron2

Classic. I was only asking, "innocently." I'll try and simplify it further. Either you don't know what you are doing, or you do. Some questions are rhetorical. Some are purely designed to elicit a response, such as if someone wanted to come in and stir things up.

You use the term "stir things up" if by that you mean an attempt to initiate a discussion then yes I am guilty as charged but isn't that the point of this forum??  If however you mean that I am intending to insult or antagonize anyone on here then you are wrong!!!  In fact if you look at the posts on this thread I have been accused of being "ignorant" and of supporting breed bans and of only showing up on the boards to bash pit bulls so just who is really trying to "stir things up"?

ron2

Is the Pit Bull a strong dog, a dog like any other dogs with ability to do damage and great things and is amplified by their work ethic and even moreso, amplified by their portrayal in the media? Yes. Do we have thug owners here? No. Do we have responsible, educated owners here with absolutely fine dogs that are more rock solid than my dog? Yes. So, exactly what kind of response were you expecting with your "question"? Let me try this from the other angle. Adults sometimes mean more than one thing with a statement. That is, a question, phrased a certain way, implies or means something than can, at times, be more of a statement than an actual question. That is what is often meant by a rhetorical question. For example, I can ask, "Isn't time we quit buying oil from OPEC?" That's rhetorical. The question implies my opinion that we should not buy from them but it is in the form of a question, as opposed to just making a shouting statement. But the opinion is there, nevertheless.

Maybe you already know this but it occured to me that you might not.

Amazing!!!  First you claim that "we have responsible, educated owners here" but then you condescendingly try to explain to me what a rhetorical question is??  So I guess that because I have a different view then your I do not qualify as "educated" enough to know what a rhetorical question is???  My questions were  NOT rhetorical!!!!  As for your question about what type of response I was looking for, well I hoped to get a variety of view points from people with a variety of experiences with these dogs. 

ron2

Yes, I did read the story. A bite is a bite, regardless of breed.

So my puppy biting my toes in an effort to play with me is the same thing as these pit bulls attacking and eating this 90 year old man????  That is just plan silly!!!

ron2

As for stubbornness, I can outlast you, if I desire.

Outlast me????  I did not realize I was in some sort of competition!  Not sure why you have a problem with me engaging in a discussion on this forum but that is all I am doing!

ron2

What is unbalanced is the media coverage of responsible owners and PBs that have been heros and ambassadors of good will versus thugs and thug wannabes.

So are you trying to say that the problems associated with this breed are just a case of bad public relations?  Having owned a pit mix and having spend a good deal of time around and with this breed I think that although they may get some unfair treatment in the press that is NOT the only problem this breed is facing!  This is a breed that is facing severe problems and those problems go alot deeper then the press coverage they receive.  The press is not the ones that are intentionally breeding this dog so that it is becoming larger, more aggressive and less stable!  Denying that this is happening is not helping the breed!!  Becoming hyper-sensitive if anyone dares to question the breed does not help the breed!  Those that truly care about this breed must be willing to acknowledge that there are some problems with it before they will be able to make meaningful changes.  Without meaningful changes this breed is unfortunately facing more bans and more discrimination.

ron2

Also, in case you didn't know, Pit Bull is not actually a breed. But there are variations of the Staffordshire and American Staffordshire Terriers that have been mixed with a breed or two elsewhere that have resulted in what most people call a Pit Bull.

Actually the APBT is a recognized breed by some such as the UKC but is not recognized as a breed by the AKC.  The AKC does however recognize the American Stafordshire Terrier which is essentually the "show" version of the breed while the APBT is the "working" version.  It is in fact possible to have a dog cross registered as a AST in the AKC and as a APBT in the UKC and I know people that have done that. 

Mark

whtsthfrequency

Ah....but how many unregistered ones do you think are floating around out there? I'm willing to bet a good deal more than that number.

Maybe so, but the registration numers indicate the general popularity of a breed compared to other breeds.  My point was, amstaffs are not considered a numerous, popular breed.   That is why I feel that very few, if any at all, of the dogs labeled as "pit bull types" that caused the fatalies, were amstaffs or other uncommon breeds.  They most likely were all either pit bulls or pit mixes.

 I live in New York city...everyone here can tell a pit bull from a boxer or a random mix.  Maybe people in rural areas can't tell the difference, but that is not where the fatalies are occuring, so who cares if they can't identify them properly.  There were 3 maulings this week in NYC alone by pit bulls.  I saw the photos.  And no, sorry to burst your bubble, but they were not random mixes, they were pits. I do not believe that it is the breed, I do believe it's the owners.  I mean, a toddler was mauled by a pit who was tossed out a window and landed on the kid.  But lets not deny the fact that the maulings and fatalies are in fact pit bulls, and pit bulls owned by thugs and gangs and irresponsible people. 

Marklf

So my puppy biting my toes in an effort to play with me is the same thing as these pit bulls attacking and eating this 90 year old man????  That is just plan silly!!!

Its comments like this that put us on defense, why is it so hard for you to not see that.

MY pit bull play biting my toes would be exactly like your puppy play biting your toes. I'm a 100lbs woman who plays and rough houses with my two pit bulls all the time becasue they know boundaries and fun play through training and obediance. A puppy trying to maul a 90 tear old man is not compaable to a full gorwn dog of ANY breed attacking a human, LOL

Again, I dont think any of us get what point your trying to make. You say you dont hate the breed but you sure dont have much nice to say about them. I'll remind you that this is a HEATED debate because they are some of our family members whom we love and cherish as much as the next dog owner. If anything I put more time, effort and training into my dogs BECAUSE of their breed. The satisfaction I get from them will never be wavered by anyones opinion.

None of us have denied the breed has serious issues that need fixing. We are simply trying to point out that there are plenty of loving pit bull in the world who live happy healthy, peaceful lives. So what point are you tying to make?

pudel

  But lets not deny the fact that the maulings and fatalies are in fact pit bulls, and pit bulls owned by thugs and gangs and irresponsible people. 

Nobody is arguing you that point

AuroraLove

Marklf

So my puppy biting my toes in an effort to play with me is the same thing as these pit bulls attacking and eating this 90 year old man????  That is just plan silly!!!

Its comments like this that put us on defense, why is it so hard for you to not see that.

Read my comment in the context it was written!  That was a response to someone attempting to claim that all bites are the same!  My point is that of course not all bites are the same!  There is a big difference between the damage that the pit bull in this story did and most of the bites that people face!  Why does that put you on the defensive?  Your dog did not maul anyone!  Your dog is not part of the problem that this breed is having!  In fact from reading your posts I think that your dog may be part of the solution!!!!!!  From what you have posted I think that your handling and raising of your pit bull is what is needed in order to insure a well behaved dog!  People seeing a well behaved pit bull like yours can get a better impression of the breed in general and THAT IS GOOD!  But that alone will not fix all the problem associated with this breed!  You have made some, IMHO, interesting proposals to help deal with the issues facing pit bulls!  Proposals like that are exactly what I am looking for in this discussion.  You have said that there is "serious issues that need fixing" well guess what that is all that I am saying also!!!!  Unfortunately there are some(not you) that are still saying there are NO issues with this breed!  Again, in my opinion, refusing to face the issues with this breed does not help the breed at all and in fact it hurts the breed because if those that truly love this breed are not willing to admit that there are issues (again this is not meaning you) with the breed then those that do not like this breed are allowed to impose their solutions which include bans and discrimination! 

AuroraLove

Again, I dont think any of us get what point your trying to make. You say you dont hate the breed but you sure dont have much nice to say about them.

Just what do you want me to say about them?  I will say that many of them bring joy to their owners.  I will say that they can be alot of fun to play with.  I will say that they can be good dogs for the right owners. 

Mark

And no, sorry to burst your bubble, but they were not random mixes, they were pits.

Was this stated and based on registered bloodlines/papers or just based on visual appraisal (not trying to make a fight, just asking)? Pit/lab mixes, for example, can look identical to full-blooded APBTs. I still hold to my arguement that there are a more pit mixes than true APBTs running around, and then people make a general term like "pit bull attack" that can mean anything from a true APBT to a pit mix. 

I would be very interested to know how many of the CDC's reported "pit bull type dog" bite list were actual APBTs and not pit mixes, similar breeds, etc. However, I don't think that was delved into. For all we know, all of those dogs were pit/lab mixes (which, like I said earlier, can look identical to real pitties) and the lab "half" is what is causing the aggression. Anything is possible with such a lack of standard definition.

I'm not really arguing pro or con "APBT aggression" per se, just saying that with such vague definition and terminology we can't draw many concrete conclusions about a specific breed.

pudel

whtsthfrequency

Ah....but how many unregistered ones do you think are floating around out there? I'm willing to bet a good deal more than that number.

I live in New York city...everyone here can tell a pit bull from a boxer or a random mix.  Maybe people in rural areas can't tell the difference, but that is not where the fatalies are occuring, so who cares if they can't identify them properly.  

I am really too tired of discussions like this to argue, but i will say this.... 

Breeds might be obvious to you because you are interested in dogs, but I promise you that this is not the case with many, many people.  I live in a suburban area.  We have lots of pits and rots here.  This is a pic of my two dogs:

The dog on the right hand side was a stray that is likely a pit bull or a mix of some sort.  The dog on the left hand side is a purebred lab.  I have had a gentleman at the dog park swear up and down (and this man owned dogs) that the lab is a rottie mix and could not be convinced otherwise (never mind the fact that he is solid chocolate and 60 lbs soaking wet).  My mother, who grew up with large dogs, was absolutely convinced that the pit mix was a rottie--to the point that one year we got a ton of rottie Christmas ornaments.  More recently, she has decided that Sally must be a boxer, because she reminds her of her childhood boxer.  Do a search on threads that discuss what breeds peoples' dogs have been misidentified as.  Sorry, but I don't buy the fact that the general public that witnesses a traumatic incident like a dog attack is going to correctly ID the breed every time, when dog owners and people in non-stressful situations seem to have trouble doing so.

I would also like to address this:

"and pit bulls owned by thugs and gangs and irresponsible people."

This statement is inaccurate, unless you know something about my criminal history and the criminal history of other pit bull owners that I don't.  My husband and I are gainfully employed, middle class, home owners.  Yes, I will buy that there are *many* irresponsible pit owners out there for sure, but to paint all pit owners as such is nothing more than ignorance, and I frankly find it offensive.   

Ta-Da

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

sillysally

I would also like to address this:

"and pit bulls owned by thugs and gangs and irresponsible people."

This statement is inaccurate, unless you know something about my criminal history and the criminal history of other pit bull owners that I don't.  My husband and I are gainfully employed, middle class, home owners.  Yes, I will buy that there are *many* irresponsible pit owners out there for sure, but to paint all pit owners as such is nothing more than ignorance, and I frankly find it offensive.   

 

NO! NO! Nobody was suggesting that ALL pit owners are thugs or irresponsible. Maybe you read the quote out of context. I think the reference was more that the PROBLEM is "pit bulls owned by thugs and gangs and irresponsible people". 

In that case try "any dog owned by" said people. Because I have seen many with Rotties, Cane Corso, Dogo Argentino, Filas, etc etc etc,

Irresponsible, uncaring, lawless, people are always a "problem" when they have access to any means to hurt others.

Marklf

Amazing!!!  First you claim that "we have responsible, educated owners here" but then you condescendingly try to explain to me what a rhetorical question is??  So I guess that because I have a different view then your I do not qualify as "educated" enough to know what a rhetorical question is

That's a rich statement. We do have responsible, educated owners here. You claim to be relatively new here so I don't know how educated and responsible you are. Some of your debating style causes me to question your knowledge or understanding. Condescending? Fair enough. We sometimes get kids in here who don't know what they are talking about and sometimes like to stir things up. And I was trying to cover all bases, just in case you were a kid. Anyone can log in and say what they want and it can be hard to know who is being serious and who is just yanking chains to see who barks. BTW, it seems to me that your initial, innocent question was a rhetorical. I still don't see a problem with the breed. And yes, owners here are a fine example of how owners should be. And they do their best to educate others when they can. But, in the real world, we often run into people who cling to a fantasy regardless of what facts and information you give. So, I don't know what your solution is. Perhaps you can come up with one.

A person thought my dog was a Chocolate Lab and I couldn;t shake her of that notion.

Which line of Chocolate Labs have four colors in the coat, a big, bushy tail carried over the back, small pointed ears that can stand up?

These are the same people that are likely to label any short coated dog with a round head a Pit Bull. They are also likely to call an American Bull Dog a Pit Bull even though it has different structure and coloring altogether. How do you get people to understand? Can you even get them to park between the lines or not leave the parking lot strewn with shopping carts. You would be surprised at the number of people that barely know how to wipe their backsides, and some fail even that.

Marklf

are you trying to say that the problems associated with this breed are just a case of bad public relations

That's exactly what I am saying. And part of the solution of others whom you applaud is to change the public's perception of this dog.

No, the press is not breeding bad Pit Bulls. Thugs are and even they are not always successful. Let me reiterate that they kill losers and non-fighters. That's because the fighting ability is not true to breed but an aberration. It's the same problem in AKC breeding. Even with champion sire and dam, only a few pups out of a litter might be show quality out of the happenstance of the exact physical dimensions required by the AKC standard. The same might happen by breeding only dogs that win fights. Thing is, thugs don't understand enough about breeding to even get near success on that. Talk about America's dumbest criminals. The press is not breeding the dog, but they don't by only reporting Pit Bull attacks because that's the hot topic right now. You can talk to me about media bias when they start reporting Pit Bulls that have won off-leash obedience awards. You can talk to me about media when they will do a special on Hauss (pronounced Hoss) at the SPCA in Dallas. A 90 pound pit bull with some Am Staff somewhere in him and as sweet as he was, you might as well call him Marshmallow. But your not going to see that because media is edited. And every single media outlet is privately owned, by individual or corporation.

Marklf

Denying that this is happening is not helping the breed!!

See above paragraph. I am not denying that thugs are trying to change the breed. Fortunately, the breed is stronger than idiot gangstas.

I've noticed you took no umbrage with how I would treat gangstas and thugs. So, would you support that notion that thugs terrorizing our streets should be treated as enemies of the state? If we are to have a war on crime, make it a real war, not just rhetoric and political sound bytes.

In other words, the problem is not in the breed, it is in the people that harm the breed with their actions. The reason the dogs fight is because they are placed in a ring and the punishment for not fighting is worse than fighting. Left to their own devices, like most dogs, they'd just as soon wander off and find their own territory. I thought perhaps you might not know how a dog fight happens. And even then, some dogs won't fight. And they are killed. By the way, no one I know thinks of Michael Vick as someone to be a role model.

rwbeagles

In that case try "any dog owned by" said people. Because I have seen many with Rotties, Cane Corso, Dogo Argentino, Filas, etc etc etc,

Irresponsible, uncaring, lawless, people are always a "problem" when they have access to any means to hurt others.

What she said.