terrible dog attack

denise m

sillysally

I would also like to address this:

"and pit bulls owned by thugs and gangs and irresponsible people."

This statement is inaccurate, unless you know something about my criminal history and the criminal history of other pit bull owners that I don't.  My husband and I are gainfully employed, middle class, home owners.  Yes, I will buy that there are *many* irresponsible pit owners out there for sure, but to paint all pit owners as such is nothing more than ignorance, and I frankly find it offensive.   

 

 

NO! NO! Nobody was suggesting that ALL pit owners are thugs or irresponsible. Maybe you read the quote out of context. I think the reference was more that the PROBLEM is "pit bulls owned by thugs and gangs and irresponsible people". 

Yes thank you, that's what I was trying to say.

 So on one hand there are responsible owners who take the right precautions, make sure accidents don't happen and who defend their right of responsible ownership with well reasoned and valid arguments.  On the other hand there are "bad" owners with the capacity for, and enjoyment of, violence.  They don't take the precautions they should and as a result, accidents happen.  Sometimes, they aren't accidents.  Somewhere in the middle is a very small minority of responsible owners who make a one-time stupid mistake/oversight in their precautions and pay a deep emotional price forever as a result.

Given the above, which seems to me to be fairly indisputable.....all I can say is that I hope those members of the population who want pit bulls banned as a result of the actions of the second group....are the same folks who are perfectly happy to give up their constitutional right to bear arms.

pudel

   ANd what difference does it make if the dog is pure pit or a mix, it is still part pit bull.

 The DIFFERENCE is that your putting your emphasis on PIT BULL and not the owner. I know you know where the problem lies but when most of the genral public speaks they are adressing the dog as the issue and not the owner. When Mark first raised this debate he was reffering to the DOG and not the owner and that is where the problem lies.

Its almost insinuating that if you or i raised that same dog that was involved in the attack the outcome would have been the same, the temperment would have been the same because it is a pit bull

People like Sally and I are flat out tired of being labeled right off the bat becasue of our breed of choice. We are both responsible home owning families who see the breed as they were 50 years ago before they were exploited and abused.

Keep in mind we dont agree with what is going on. We dont condone 100lbs pit bulls with massive heads and bulky bodies who are bred for looks and walked around on a choke chain or tied up outside. People who feed into this image are contributing to it.

Well I'm seeing two arguments here.  One is saying that the idiot owners are the problem (which I agree with), and the other is saying that the dogs in question are not pit bulls.  It's the former I agree wtih.  By trying to convince people of the latter, it makes you look ignorant of the culture of idiot owners wanting pit bulls and wanting them aggressive. Or saying that chihuahuas are just as dangerous is a bad argument too.  I own toy poodles and i know they are more likely to bite than most pits. In fact, I have had one of my dogs bite a person on the hand and blood was drawn.  But my dogs are incapable of mauling and killing an adult human being.   The do not have to strength to knock a child off his feet and hold him down on the ground while tearing flesh from his body. That is why people who have poweful breeds have more of a responsibility and need to be aware of the issues involving the irresponsible. The pit owners who post on this board are responsible, but most are not, and not just irresponsible, but causing problems on purpose.  They are not deliberately creating aggressive labs, pomeranians or boxers, or heinz 57 mixes. 

It makes you look ignorant of the problem of idiot owners wanting pit bulls and wanting them aggressive

I'm far from ignorant about it and I'll thank you to refrain from making veiled insults. It makes a difference because people are labeling the Pit Bull breed as naturally aggressive because of bite statistics. The statistics can carry no weight, because the top group is not APBTs - it is "pit mixes "pit bull types"

I'll make an example - and as a disclaimer I am not trying tobe racist or anything, but I have always though that comparision between dog breeds and human ethnic groups makes sense. Let's say, in an inner city, statistics show that the majority of crimes are committed by "black people." There are Jamaicans, Haitians, Nigerians, Americans, tons of different ehtnicities and "mixes" that are lumped under the term "black people"

Could you therefore use that statistic to say that Nigerians in particular are mor elikely to commit crimes? Of course you can't, because you don't know the actual breakdown. They might be the lowest on the list. Same with the APBT and "pit bull type dogs" - we simply don't know.

And YES, the fact that it is a mix, or a very similar breed DOES make a difference. You say that it doesn't matter because it is still "part pit" How can you tell me for certain that it is the APBT genetic material in this dog that is causing the aggression? How do you know it isn't the Lab, or cattle dog, or Golden, or whatever the dog is mixed with?

True APBTs were bred specifically to NOT be human aggressive. But now we have a) people changing the origional bloodline and creating aggressive pits, and 2) everything that looks like a pit being called a pit. 

Never did I say that the dogs in question are absolutely not pit bulls. I'm saying that, based on the vague information we have, we cannot say for sure that all of these attacks are due to APBTs.
 

Or saying that chihuahuas are just as dangerous is a bad argument too.

 
You will see I clarified that I was not saying that, if you go back and read my post. Straw man arguements do not fly with me.

 
And there is nothing wrong with having two arguements against the same problem. People simply chose one to put forth. They are not mutually exclusive. The problem is multifaceted and therefore has various applicable arguements. 

I own toy poodles and i know they are more likely to bite than most pits. In fact, I have had one of my dogs bite a person on the hand and blood was drawn.  But my dogs are incapable of mauling and killing an adult human being.   The do not have to strength to knock a child off his feet and hold him down on the ground while tearing flesh from his body. That is why people who have poweful breeds have more of a responsibility and need to be aware of the issues involving the irresponsible.

I agree that owners of larger dogs have to be careful simply because of size and strength, but larger dog does not = more aggressive dog. This paragraph seems to say that an aggressive toy poodle is more acceptable than an aggressive larger dog, and that small dog owners do not have to be as responsible as large dog owners....? Human aggression, no matter how much damage is caused, is equally unacceptable.

You just admitted that a toy poodle is more likely to bite than a pit.....yet you are *sure* that it is the "half pit" of mixes that caused their aggressiveness whenever a pit mix bites someone? 

pudel

By trying to convince people of the latter, it makes you look ignorant of the culture of idiot owners wanting pit bulls and wanting them aggressive.

Are you saying that the people here who are defending the breed look ignorant because you don't agree with how they defend? Just wondering.

pudel

That is why people who have poweful breeds have more of a responsibility and need to be aware of the issues involving the irresponsible

If you would change powerful breed to large dogs, in general, then your statement would have some accuracy. My dog is 26 inches to the shoulder and long and weighs 65 lbs and can run at least 35 mph. And is strong enough that he could pull me, which is four times his own weight. So, I worked on his social skills and training, not because he is anything like a Pit Bull but because he is a large dog. FWIW, all dogs regardless of size should be trained and socialized. The difference between a nip from a Chihuahua and a gouge from a Pit Bull is a matter of size and mechanics, not breed traits.

So what is it that you have against Pit Bulls?

pudel

denise m

sillysally

I would also like to address this:

"and pit bulls owned by thugs and gangs and irresponsible people."

This statement is inaccurate, unless you know something about my criminal history and the criminal history of other pit bull owners that I don't.  My husband and I are gainfully employed, middle class, home owners.  Yes, I will buy that there are *many* irresponsible pit owners out there for sure, but to paint all pit owners as such is nothing more than ignorance, and I frankly find it offensive.   

 

 

NO! NO! Nobody was suggesting that ALL pit owners are thugs or irresponsible. Maybe you read the quote out of context. I think the reference was more that the PROBLEM is "pit bulls owned by thugs and gangs and irresponsible people". 

Yes thank you, that's what I was trying to say.

 Sillysally - your pit mix is not part of the statistic because you are a responsible owner.  Those that are not are the ones causing the problems. The thugs and gangs that I speak of are not interested in owning labs, they have pit bulls and they are attacking people because they are most common breed owned by people who want to make their dogs aggressive.  Thus, the problems.  ANd what difference does it make if the dog is pure pit or a mix, it is still part pit bull.

You apparently completely missed what I was saying.  My point was that YES, dog breeds are frequently mislabeled, and yes, it does make a difference.   

Where in any of my posts did I state that there is a breed trait in pits that makes them aggressive towards people?

Anyway, I'll bet in Virginia and Indiana and wherever else you guys live, you don't see what I see every day.  I live in NYC and every day I pass through inner city areas where this pit bull culture persists.   How many gang members and thugs do you personally see each day walking pits with heavy chains , all pumped up with testosterone and competing who has the biggest and baddest pit? *content removed, inflammatory, rude*

I have nothing against the dogs, I love all dogs, it's the culture I hate and the people sucked in by it. 

There were 3 maulings this week in NYC.  If you are gonna try to convince me they are not pits, then yes you are ignorant.  For the 8th time, they were not labs and they were not heinz 57 mixes.  There is a problem here with pit bull culture and it needs to be stopped.  I can honestly say I've never heard of a victim who was torn, limb to limb, by a lab.  No one here is purposely starving labs, or feeding them gun powder or what have you, to make them angry and aggressive.   Why don't you spend a day in the inner city and see it for yourself if you don't believe me.  There are plenty of people all over who are in denial of what's happening because they fear losing their beloved pits.  That is where you are getting your information from and it's not the full picture..

 *content removed, rude* Today is not 50 years ago. 

AuroraLove

People like Sally and I are flat out tired of being labeled right off the bat becasue of our breed of choice. We are both responsible home owning families who see the breed as they were 50 years ago before they were exploited and abused.

Perhaps this is why it is so difficult for us to attempt to discuss this.  You see the breed as it was in the past and you want us to view the breed in that way.  I see the breed as it is today and how it will be in the future if something is not done to deal with the issues facing it.  Do not take that as insulting please!!!  I see you as someone that is trying to address the issue facing this breed!!!!  At least you are willing to admit that there are issues to face, too many other Pit Lovers seem to want deny there are any issues and that denial strenghtens the hand of those that favor breed bans. 

Mark

pudel

Anyway, I'll bet in Virginia and Indiana and wherever else you guys live, you don't see what I see every day.  I live in NYC and every day I pass through inner city areas where this pit bull culture persists.   How many gang members and thugs do you personally see each day walking pits with heavy chains , all pumped up with testosterone and competing who has the biggest and baddest pit?  Or are you just regurgitating information you read on the internet?

I live in Virginia and trust me the issue with pit bulls is NOT just in NYC!!  We have the same issues with the "gangsta" mentality here.  As an example I while driving my wife to work I often see one particular guy parading his oversized Pit Bull which is on a large chain, I call the dog Mr T because around the dogs neck is a ton of "bling"!!!  Most of the time the owner is wearing his Mike Vick shirt!  Yes there are those in my area that consider Vick to still be a hometown hero. 

Mark

whtsthfrequency

True APBTs were bred specifically to NOT be human aggressive. But now we have a) people changing the origional bloodline and creating aggressive pits, and 2) everything that looks like a pit being called a pit. 

Funny but we have had  "pit bull" supporters on this thread make the claim that the pit bull is not an actual breed.  You are now claiming that it matters if they are "purebred" or mixes.  How could they be "purebred" if there is no breed? (Yes ron that one is a rhetorical question)

Mark

 Wow. This argument is novel.

If APBT's and pitbull mixes were so dangerous, there would be so many more injuries. This is an opinion based not on the past, but on the vast numbers of these dogs on the street and the relatively few (though tragic) attacks and fatalities.

There is so much hype about dangerous pitbulls, and we all ooooh and aaaaah every time the news features an attack, but the numbers don't support the hysteria.

On the scale of things that hurt human beings, dog attacks are don't rank very high. Want to get angry? Get angry about the fact that its legal to text message while driving. THAT is what's going to kill your neighbor.

If places manage to ban this breed, there will be a new "bully" breed. It used to be dobs & German Sheps. It's the owners not the breed. I didn't read all the posts so this has most likely already been stated. We have a friend with a young pit and he is way friendlier than our lab.

Dog_ma

If APBT's and pitbull mixes were so dangerous, there would be so many more injuries. This is an opinion based not on the past, but on the vast numbers of these dogs on the street and the relatively few (though tragic) attacks and fatalities.

Are you really trying to argue that there are not enough injuries caused by this breed????  Yep thats an argument that will really help to prevent BSL.

Mark