terrible dog attack

Mod warning,

The snark factor on this thread needs to come down quite a few notches, or edits will be forthcoming. This applies to ALL posting to it. Argue your points...if they are based in fact, or are legitimate respectfully voiced opinion, there is no reason to get personal, sarcastic, rude, or otherwise go beyond the forum rules.

 

Marklf

whtsthfrequency

True APBTs were bred specifically to NOT be human aggressive. But now we have a) people changing the origional bloodline and creating aggressive pits, and 2) everything that looks like a pit being called a pit. 

 

Funny but we have had  "pit bull" supporters on this thread make the claim that the pit bull is not an actual breed.  You are now claiming that it matters if they are "purebred" or mixes.  How could they be "purebred" if there is no breed? (Yes ron that one is a rhetorical question)

Mark

It's true that there are kind of 2 things people mean when they say "pit bull".  Sometimes they use it as a shorthand for "American Pit Bull Terrier" (which is a BREED) and some use it as a generic term which refers to a TYPE and could refer to several different breeds, not just APBTs or even mixes of them.

And yeah, ANY dog has the capacity for aggression.  Any BREED has the capacity for aggression.   If a pit bull (and you can take that any way you choose) is crossed with something else and later becomes aggressive. you don't know HOW much of that aggression comes from the sire and how much from the dam

 

pudel

How many gang members and thugs do you personally see each day walking pits with heavy chains , all pumped up with testosterone and competing who has the biggest and baddest pit?

 

pudel

There is a problem here with pit bull culture and it needs to be stopped

 

You are only proving my point. It is not the breed, it is the human. Of course people aren't feeding Labs gunpowder and engendering aggression in them. But they would if they decided Labs were the new "tough" breed.

pudel

then yes you are ignorant

Do you mean ignorant as in lacking knowledge? Or do you mean it as a personal insult?

Your basically asking the law-abiding citizen here to do something about gangs and thugs. When even the police have a hard time with it. The people here are not responsible for gang activity nor is their desire to represent the true aspects of the breed contributing to the thug life. Are you wanting to blame a member here for the gang problems in your city halfway across the continent? Is that more of the "punish the innocent for the sins of the guilty" so prevalent in a number of religions? Just as you want us to recognize something "wrong" with the breed, once again, punishing an innocent dog for the sins of guilty humans. The people here are the solution. And you want to call the solution "ignorant"? I'm sorry you have gangstas in your town. There's plenty of them in Dallas, too. Dallas just passed ordinances requiring mandatory spay/neuter, a licensing fee for breeders, and a pet ownership limit. So, let me burst your bubble. The thugs will simply move operations to just outside the Dallas city limits. You can't get rid of the "problem" with pit bulls until you get rid of thugs. Good luck with that.

pudel

Get your heads out of the sand

Just as soon as you quit expecting a small woman with a debilitated shoulder to go out with any weapons and scare off the thugs and "make them" quit getting pit bulls. If we're going to talk about unrealistic expectations, why stop at calling us ignorant?

 Admin speaking...

What Gina said, for one thing.  And I'd also like to point out that intentionally misrepresenting what another member has said in order to illustrate a point is an exceptionally poor debate tactic.  Debating intelligently and with respect is the best service one can do to one's point....and is also an indication of the quality of this forum's membership. 

ron2

pudel

How many gang members and thugs do you personally see each day walking pits with heavy chains , all pumped up with testosterone and competing who has the biggest and baddest pit?

pudel

There is a problem here with pit bull culture and it needs to be stopped

You are only proving my point. It is not the breed, it is the human. Of course people aren't feeding Labs gunpowder and engendering aggression in them. But they would if they decided Labs were the new "tough" breed.

But you agree that there is a problem with the culture surrounding pit bulls, right?  So why keep insisting that the dogs in question are not pit bulls?

ron2

Do you mean ignorant as in lacking knowledge? Or do you mean it as a personal insult?

I said that denying that there is a problem with the culture surrounding pit bulls, and denying that instances such as the 3 attacks that happened this week in NYC were in fact pit bulls, makes you LOOK ignorant and therefore you will be unable to convince anyone of your stance.  I'll bet if I just came on this bvoard and posted those news articles, that everyone here would automatically get defensive and post that the dogs were most likely there were not pits, instead of saying - "hey you know what, there is a problem that is happening to my beloved breed and something needs to be done about it".

 

ron2

You can't get rid of the "problem" with pit bulls until you get rid of thugs. Good luck with that.

Right, so the only course of action is to just deny that there is a problem and blame fatalities on other breeds. 

pudel

Right, so the only course of action is to just deny that there is a problem and blame fatalities on other breeds. 

 

 

actually...Ron said you need to put the blame where it belongs on THE PEOPLE.

I wasn't aware that was in question here...is that not something you agree with pudel?

Would you mind expanding on why you do not believe the thugs, or rather...irresponsible uncaring, owners...are the actual issue?

If you (the plural as dog owning citizens of any locality) want to impact the problem in a proactive way, then lobby extensively in your city for adequate monetary allotment in the budget to address animal control issues and enforcement of existing laws.  Do that, you might see an impact.  I can not lobby in any area other than the one I live in when it comes to animal control issues.  I can write letters of support or interest but my dollars will have minimal impact on your elected officials.  You need to be at the meetings, writing the letters, getting the petitions.  If you dont, the manditory spay neuter and animal rights agenda will win in the long run.

pudel

So why keep insisting that the dogs in question are not pit bulls

We want accuracy in reporting. Many people have incorrectly identified dogs as Pit Bulls.

pudel

makes you LOOK ignorant

Evidently it's okay for you to keep using the word ignorant in relation to us. I learn something new everyday.

pudel

Right, so the only course of action is to just deny that there is a problem and blame fatalities on other breeds

Not quite. The problem is with humans, not with dogs. You still haven't provided a solution other than saying we LOOK ignorant. (to the mods and admin, I'm am not debating or snarking, I am simply repeating the phrase of another).

My solution to gangs and thugs is drastic and final but no one has the stomach for that. It's easier to produce pet limits and mandatory spay/neuter than it is to rid our streets of thugs. Again, the dog suffers for the sins of Man.

There are people here who are fully committed to the bully breeds. And no amount of thug life also associated with the breed is going to change their feelings. And being labeled as appearing ignorant only serves to create animosity. So, there's the solution of providing education and example, provided the rest of the public has the ability to understand. Remember, it is often futile to go into a battle of wits with an unarmed man. But this is the preferred solution, as well as local political action. Always protest BSL in your area. But the wheels of education turn slow and sometimes fall on deaf ears. My solution takes care of the problem directly and quickly and is certainly politically incorrect.

So, what is your solution?

 

Marklf

AuroraLove

People like Sally and I are flat out tired of being labeled right off the bat becasue of our breed of choice. We are both responsible home owning families who see the breed as they were 50 years ago before they were exploited and abused.

Perhaps this is why it is so difficult for us to attempt to discuss this.  You see the breed as it was in the past and you want us to view the breed in that way.  I see the breed as it is today and how it will be in the future if something is not done to deal with the issues facing it.  Do not take that as insulting please!!!  I see you as someone that is trying to address the issue facing this breed!!!!  At least you are willing to admit that there are issues to face, too many other Pit Lovers seem to want deny there are any issues and that denial strenghtens the hand of those that favor breed bans. 

Mark

I'm really not even sure what you are having such an issue with.  I think that pretty much any pit owner will tell you that irresponsible, criminal owners are a *huge* issue for this breed.  I can assure you that I am very well acquainted with the problems facing the breed, as I'm sure that any other responsible pit bull owner is--we are the ones going the extra mile to make sure our dogs are well mannered, making sure we educate people (like coworkers) who make nasty comments about the breed, trying to educate owners who are not very responsible, watching the weekly BSL reports for possible issues in our region, showing up to meetings and writing letters to prevent BSL from being passed, etc.  After getting Sally and having a full realization of the issues the breed faces I literally worried myself into sickness and sleeplessness about the prospect of our family (and yes she is part of our family) being torn apart by legislation, and I am quite sure that I am not alone on this one so PLEASE, don't sit there and talk about us simply not wanting to see reality because we are knee-deep in reality.

The fact of the matter is that the issue with pit bulls is *not* a one dimensional problem, so IMHO, it is not useful at all to see it in that light.  It is a problem with thug owners who only want to the so they can appear to be badasses.  It is a problem with the rap/thug culture that little gems like Snoop Dogg and DMX have made ever so popular.  It is a problem with real live criminals who carelessly breed fighting dogs or deliberalty breed human aggressive pits to guard their drug houses.  It is a problem with people who get pits because it is "cool," leave the dog isolated and unsocialized, chained up, untrained, and might even encourage gurady/human aggressive behavior, let it run loose, and/or physically abuse the dog.  Sadly, it is true that many of the people attracted to pit type dogs shouldn't own a goldfish (although I could say this about many lab owners too--sheesh).  I don't think that anyone is arguing this.

It is a problem with population--it is the norm in my area for people to keep their pits intact and breed them.  I am unusual because mine is fixed.  There are actual American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, and American Bull Dogs----THEN you have you GORK (God only really knows) bred pit bull (these account for a *lot* of the pits you see out there--probably most in my area)--these are not an actual breed but a mix of what are sometimes purebred pits, but more often dogs that look enough like pit bulls to sell them as such for $50 bucks off the back of your truck.  I know for a fact that people mix other things in because two of the owners who have asked me to breed my Sally with their dogs had mixed breeds--one was a boxer/pit mix and the other a dobe/pit mix.  They never asked if Sally was purebred, they only liked her coloring, and Sally could be many different things--hell she could not even have any pit in her as she looks nothing like most pits here.  The dog in our neighborhood she most resembles is a pit/chow mix, so who knows?

Like it or not it is also a problem with media.  Most media outlets are very slow to report anything positive about pits and very fast to cling to the negative.  Why? Well, pit bulls unfortunately are thought of by many as "thug" dogs and such coverage is sexy.  On the flip side, if it's not a pit, rot or wolf hybrid many news agencies barely report it.  Remember the lady who got half her face ripped off by her dog and had a face transplant?  It took FOREVER for that dog's breed to come out, and it turns out that it was a Labrador.  What did the media have to say about that?  The commonly reported thing was that she passed out and the dog MUST have been trying to wake her up.  This is despite the fact that the neighbors said the dog was aggressive.  Now I have owned a lab for almost 2 years now and he has never attempted to wake my by ripping off body parts...There have been stories of very minor bites by pits requiring a couple of stitches that have made to the nightly news on Chicago stations.  When I was bitten in the face as a child by a GSD and got 21 stitches and some scars out of it nobody from the news was contacting my parents.  When there was an attack in one community in California a traffic chopper actually reported that someone was out *gasp* walking their pit bull (a dog that had done nothing wrong and was not involved with the attack) down the sidewalk.  No, the media is not the entire problem by a long shot, but it is a facet of it.

Yes, breed identification is also an aspect of the problem.  But don't take my word for it, just ask the people who started keeping stats on deadly dog attacks in the first place--the CDC.  They have actually stopped keeping such records because they realized that the info might not be as exact as they want it to be and therefore do not think that policy should be based on it.  Add to that the fact that the average person doesn't know what the hell most breeds look like and 'nuff said IMHO. 

Nevermind....

 I should have known better than to post here on such an emotionally-charged issue.  

I'm finished here.

pudel

 They care more about their right to own the breed they want,

 

Yeah, personal rights and liberties really shouldn't be high on the agenda.... should they?   Come on, you MUST know how silly that sounds.

 

pudel

 I also feel that many who are outspoken in defending pit ownership are being selfish.  They care more about their right to own the breed they want, out of the hundreds of breeds and countless shelter mixes available, than they care about the thousands of abused dogs and the people getting hurt.  If they truly cared about pit bulls then they should support laws to keep them out of the hands of the wrong people, even if that means (heaven forbid) owning another breed besides a pit. 

 pudel this paragraph seems (to me) to  imply that you think banning the breed will solve the issue and responsible people who own a pit (or want to) should stop being "selfish" and pick another breed, or a mix from the shelter.  Is that accurate or would you like to clarify?
 

Chuffy

imply that you think banning the breed will solve the issue

And many of us know that a breed ban will not help. Years ago, the bad dog was Doberman Pinchers. For a while, even Great Danes. Rotties, etc. I can't count the number of times I have seen a movie or t.v. show where a compound was to be guarded by "mean" looking dogs, usually Dobies and Rotties. Which is not to say that those dogs can't be good guardians but the producers chose them for their looks and implied "viciousness." Just as Sibes and Malamutes were often used as stand-ins for wolves in movies. This gives some people the wrong notion that a Sibe is just like a wolf. Wrongo. A Sibe can hunt a critter and maybe even play with it so hard the critter dies. But then, they don't know what to do with it. A wolf would know.

Sillysally,

I do not disagree with most of what you posted!  I have said several times that I do not support banning any breed including Pits!  I have stated that the media is not always fair in their coverage about Pit bulls.  Like you I too have owned a Pit mix.  You have stated that you are raising your dogs responsibly and I believe you and I think that does help with the publics perception about the breed!  It appears that you are indeed taking a realistic view of the breed and if my posts about those that refuse to see reality offended you I apologize!!!!!  They were NOT aimed at you!!!  But if you read through this thread you will see several that are still circling their wagons and denying that their are any problem with the breed!  I see problems with this breed that go alot deeper then just "bad press" and "thug" owners!  You hit on some of the problems like overpopulation, poor socialization and the tendency for owners to leave the dogs intact.  Again I agree with you!!!!  Those are some of the problems with the breed that I am seeing!  I would add to that list however that there is also a stronger tendency in this breed for some forms of aggression then is found in many other breeds.  That does not mean that ALL pit bulls or pit bull mixes are aggressive!!!!!  But that tendency should not be ignored by people when they are selecting which breed of dog is suitable for them nor should it be ignored when involved in discussions such as this. 

Mark

And I have always been of the mind that dogs should be bred for temperment and workability, in that order, over confirmation and dimension. And, at least with science and an understanding of genetics on our side, we should hopefully have more success than the thugs.

I see problems now and then in Labs, too, plus the fact that they are mixed with everything, no doubt with the idea that the resulting dog will be a goofy friend like a well-bred Lab is.

So, how do we get clueless people to stop breeding badly? Dallas is trying to enact mandatory spay/neuter and a licensing fee for breeders. But there is not really any guidelines on how they may breed or what criteria they must follow. And the thugs will just move to Garland or Mesquite or Palmer and breed there.

Legit breeders do not breed for aggression but the opposite of it. But thug and legit do not always go together.

Some cities take drastic measures as a stop-gag. Detroit, MI euthanizes pit bulls and other dogs seized in the raids of dog fighting rings. It may not seem fair to the breed and I wish the euthanasia extended to the criminals involved. Aside from that, how do we fix the problem, other than the methods already in place, namely education and political activism, which is already in practice here by some members? And again, remember that thugs are not always successful in creating a fighter. They kill losers and non-fighters.

ron2

So, how do we get clueless people to stop breeding badly? Dallas is trying to enact mandatory spay/neuter and a licensing fee for breeders. But there is not really any guidelines on how they may breed or what criteria they must follow. And the thugs will just move to Garland or Mesquite or Palmer and breed there.

Well Auroralove has already listed some proposals that could help with this issue.  I would support requiring all owners of pit bull to register and license the dogs at a significant fee and if the owners do not spay/neuter that "significant fee" should be significantly higher!  I would also require all owners to carry liability insurance for the dogs which they must be able to show proof of if a law enforcement officer request it.  As part of the licensing process a criminal background check would be completed and licenses denied to those that have had any violent crime convictions or narcotic trafficking convictions and of course dog fighting or animal abuse convictions would disqualify them.  In order to obtain a license for these dogs the owners would also need to attend education classes that cover such things as the proper socialization of the breed, dog obedience training, and owner responsibility!  I would require they attend these classes periodically in order to renew their licenses.  I would require even more training and regulation plus a separate license for those that breed them.  All breeders must agree to remove from there breeding stock any dogs that demonstrate dog aggression and of course any dog that demonstrates human aggression must be euthanized. 

Mark