puppy mills - growing problem

It's amusing to me that breeders do so much to stop legislation that might effectively shut down the pet stores, internet puppy mills and puppy mills, because they fear limits on what they themselves are doing, which might be quite reputable.  If they don't step up to the plate to help solve the problem, they will be severely impacted by laws that make no sense and have no relevance to the real health and well being of dogs.  Not all genetic disorders are the fault of breeders, but genetic testing certainly isn't something you find a whole lot of in puppy mill country.  All you breeders out there, what would you suggest as a legislative solution (since the tide is turning and one is probably coming...)?  I think that it isn't enough to say what you don't want, or who you don't want to align yourself with.  Erica poses a fair question...who do you want to see rescuers and advocates work WITH, and what kind of legislation would limit the ability of puppy mills to function, but keep hobby breeders safe?

BTW, USDA deals with agriculture and in that context puppies are "livestock," so my opinion of USDA as the arbiter of what constitutes a mill and what's humane... well, suffice to say that I look at that with as jaundiced an eye as many people view HSUS. 

Personally, I don't believe there is a "legislative solution".  Wish there was, but I really don't think there is....

I think it's more of a cultural problem.  People want something and they want it yesterday.  They don't want to do research, get off their butts and visit breeders, get on a waiting list and be matched with the right dog.  They want to order their shnoo-doodle-poo off the Internet with a credit card or go to the nearest mall and pick up something at the pet store.  As long as people really don't care about quality breeding programs, I don't see how we can expect their to be a major change in how these pets are supplied.

I think people need to be educated, but it's really not the fault of reputable breeders and fanciers if others are not receptive or don't care.  If someone wants to buy a GSD from a pet store, I cannot stop them.  I can suggest some breeders and clubs to join, I can point out which breeding programs are really puppy mills and commercial kennels, but it's really up to them whether or not they care. 

I really think the problem lies with the demand, not with the supply.  If people simply stopped buying puppy mill dogs, suppliers would move on to something else.  But people keep buying them....

erica1989

How do we fix the puppy mill problem?

I third this, DIRECTLY at AgileGSD.

Liesje

Personally, I don't believe there is a "legislative solution".  Wish there was, but I really don't think there is....

I think it's more of a cultural problem.  People want something and they want it yesterday.  They don't want to do research, get off their butts and visit breeders, get on a waiting list and be matched with the right dog.  They want to order their shnoo-doodle-poo off the Internet with a credit card or go to the nearest mall and pick up something at the pet store.  As long as people really don't care about quality breeding programs, I don't see how we can expect their to be a major change in how these pets are supplied.

I think people need to be educated, but it's really not the fault of reputable breeders and fanciers if others are not receptive or don't care.  If someone wants to buy a GSD from a pet store, I cannot stop them.  I can suggest some breeders and clubs to join, I can point out which breeding programs are really puppy mills and commercial kennels, but it's really up to them whether or not they care. 

I really think the problem lies with the demand, not with the supply.  If people simply stopped buying puppy mill dogs, suppliers would move on to something else.  But people keep buying them....

  I agree Liesje. I think there should be a standard of care for commercial breeders, which covers basic care requirements: food, water, shelter, sanitation, health care. There are already such regulations in place for commercial dogs breeders: http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:vFHJ2pxzdwEJ:www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/animal_welfare/content/printable_version/faq_animal_dealers.pdf+usda+commercial+dog+breeding+regulations&hl=en&sig=AFQjCNHLFZ86CN1V2p-XCG-KuAqy8Kp6RQ If there is a lack of follow up or inspection on such things in, that certainly should be addressed but not by passing more and more restrictive breeding laws. This is kind of like supporting banning pit bulls to stop dog fighting or pet limit laws to stop "hoarders" when there are already laws which cover dog fighting and sanitation or neglect issues. The real purpose of such laws is to further the AR agenda which is to place more and more restrictions on pet ownership.

AGAIN - HOW do we go about this? All you are doing is pointing fingers, and complaining about what is being done. HOW would YOU fix this problem?

There clearly is a need for SOMETHING to be done...what should be done?

erica1989

AGAIN - HOW do we go about this? All you are doing is pointing fingers, and complaining about what is being done. HOW would YOU fix this problem?

There clearly is a need for SOMETHING to be done...what should be done?

 Did you even read my reply? There are already regulations in place for commercial breeders. If those are not being followed up on, adding more isn't the answer.

obviously what is in place now is not working, so now what?

you don't like the website that is in place because of who it's run by, you don't think adding more laws is the answer - and I'm sure you think protesting outside of petstores in an AR scheme. lobbying againt pm's is an AR movement too.

so now what.

I think...educational campaigns, boycotting stores that sell puppies and being very vocal about it...those sorts of things.  Problem is like I was saying, there are still plenty of people who have no problem buying from mills, even people on this forum I have seen defending these breeders.  Personally I think it's better tackled by cutting off the demand.  Also, making sure that current regulations are more strictly enforced and that abusers get full punishments.

We HAVE been vocal - believe me. We've done protests, we constantly pass out information about these mills. We continuously tell people to stay away from any store selling animals - we show pictures from our own confistaction at every event - and weekly at our petsmart adoptions.

This only gets so far - when the people running the mills are in NO VIOLATIONS. They 'provide' food, water and shelter - and that's IT. And they are doing nothing wrong, in the eyes of the law. Our puppy miller was convicted of 58 counts of animal cruelty - and is STILL allowed to breed and own animals. Can anyone PLEASE tell me how this is OK? Can anyone honestly tell me how this is 'good' and 'protecting' the breeders out there?

The bill being proposed, again, is aimed to limit the amount of puppies sold - so that these mills cannot opperate. Sure - you sell 20-30 pups a year - fine. But 500-600? Shouldn't there be some sort of regulation on that? Shouldn't there be some way to protect the mom/dad dogs under the breeders care, aside from standard food/water/shelter?

I can't being to count the number of phone calls we get about puppy mills, just like the one we attempted to shut down, all over my state. And I can't begin to count the number of people who KNOW that these places are no good - and constantly educated everyone around them about how to properly buy a dog - or rescue from a shelter.

I guess- until you've been IN the 'home' and handled the 100s of dogs being removed - you really can't understand the severity of this issue- and why I feel so strongly against it...

AgileGSD

erica1989

AGAIN - HOW do we go about this? All you are doing is pointing fingers, and complaining about what is being done. HOW would YOU fix this problem?

There clearly is a need for SOMETHING to be done...what should be done?

 

 Did you even read my reply? There are already regulations in place for commercial breeders. If those are not being followed up on, adding more isn't the answer.

I think people read your reply, but the regulations you cite are not stopping puppy mills.  So, they, quite rightly, want to know your position on what you think would stop them.  I think Liesje is right - it'll never stop until people educate themselves and stop buying from those sources.  So, at the risk of being thought of as a b&*^%, I tell people straight up what I think of indiscriminate breeding practices, and puppy mills.

spiritdogs

I think people read your reply, but the regulations you cite are not stopping puppy mills.  So, they, quite rightly, want to know your position on what you think would stop them.  I think Liesje is right - it'll never stop until people educate themselves and stop buying from those sources.  So, at the risk of being thought of as a b&*^%, I tell people straight up what I think of indiscriminate breeding practices, and puppy mills.

 What is a "puppy mill"? By "puppy mill" do you mean commercial breeders? If so, the regulations are not meant to "stop puppy mills" but to ensure that commercial breeders provide a certain level of care to their dogs. If these regulations are not being enforced the answer is not more regulations but to address why they are not being enforced. Regardless of how I personally feel about the subject, I wouldn't support outlawing commercial breeders.

 I used to work with a woman who would try to make people who bought petstore puppies feel like evil monsters when they came to her training class. She would show them all this AR propaganda which included such wacky misinformation as "puppy mills dog are bred so often that their insides grow together" and scold the new owners for supporting such a thing. It didn't make people return their puppies to the store, it made them think she was a total nut and switch to my classes. Funny thing is, she didn't exactly care for her animals very well herself and ran a very questionable rescue. I guess she should be forgiven that though because like HSUS she is fighting for the cause.

no - the regulations you cite require FOOD, WATER and SHELTER. THAT'S IT.

And misinformation? Those dogs are bred until they cannot move. Think it's false? We had 3-4 dogs that werent' able to walk well. Many females had hernias twisted around their insides- that would have died without emergency surgery. Dogs are bred until they die - until they are no longer worth money to the 'breeder'. Then they are usually tossed out, or shot, or left to die in their kennel with 10 other dogs.

I don't think you really understand the severity of this issue. You just do not get it. And that's fine, you can't make someone care about something that they have no desire to care about. I'm glad you think this is all acceptable - that nothing is wrong. I've never once said I had a problem with breeders - I happen to know many who are just fantastic. my problem is with mass producers who breed only for the intent of gaining a profit. who don't give two rats butts about the animal - so long as they get their dollars.

I guess I'll go back to my corner now, and continue fighting for my cause. Since it's obvious you do not care for what I have to say. I'll take my 'agenda' elsewhere.

erica1989

I guess I'll go back to my corner now, and continue fighting for my cause. Since it's obvious you do not care for what I have to say.

Yes, please continue to do what you do, Erica.  Many of us do care, a lot and we appreciate what you and all the shelter and rescue people do to help the dogs innocently caught up in man's greed.  Thank you, Erica.

erica1989

no - the regulations you cite require FOOD, WATER and SHELTER. THAT'S IT.

Erica, I would like to thank you for your work against puppy mills.  Just the use of the phrase "commercial breeder" is enough to tell the story of these poor dogs and their offspring.  I don't understand why some believe that standing up for the welfare of these animals has to equate to being completely in favor of the entire animal rights agenda.  While I do not agree with the vast majority of the agenda of PETA and HSUS, there are a few valid points to their thinking.  But because they are so far off the charts on so many things, they are very scarey indeed.  I take offense to someone lumping you and what you are doing into some "AR" argument.  Maybe if more of us become willing to get off our butts and do something like you are (including myself) we could put the horrible owners of these mills out of business.  No matter what anyone else may say to you there are many more people who support your efforts than not.