puppy mills - growing problem

I guess that's what makes me different, Agile. See - I'm NOT anti-breeding, had you bothered to read anything I've posted - you'd know that. I'm not anti-ownership - why else would I own animals?

You're jumping to an awful lot of conclusions, but I guess I should expect that. You're only reading the parts you want to read - and not looking at the whole picture. I do not, and have never, supported HSUS or PETA - in anything.

I'm in this fight for my 101 dogs that were neglected and abused, several to DEATH. And for Waylon.

I guess until this affects YOU - you wont care, and for that - I feel very, very sorry for you.

erica1989

You're jumping to an awful lot of conclusions, but I guess I should expect that. You're only reading the parts you want to read - and not looking at the whole picture. I do not, and have never, supported HSUS or PETA - in anything.

 But you posted an article which provides, as a sole resource a HSUS website. The article had an anti-breeder tone, implying that having a genetic health issue is a "surefire sign of a puppy mill puppy". By promoting such viewpoints, in order to further your own cause you are promoting AR and in this case, HSUS.

erica1989

I guess until this affects YOU - you wont care, and for that - I feel very, very sorry for you.

Why does it always comes to "you don't care about these poor dogs like I do!!!!!!"?

I have already said (meant) that the situation with the liver shunt puppy was sad all around. Still, the problem is not one which can be screened for, is only "suspected" to be genetic as certain breeds are more prone to it and has an unknown mode of inheritance. IOWs there isn't much a breeder can do to guarantee that they will never produce a puppy with a liver shunt. Yet in this case, the situation is being used to pass "more laws!!!!" to regulate dog breeding, supposedly to stop "puppy mills". Yet it appears that the current regulations are not being enforced properly and no one questions that? Has HSUS been involved with writing these new laws? 

 AR is not just a threat to breeders and to purebred dogs but a threat to pet ownership in America. I guess until this affects YOU - you won't care, and for that I feel very, very sorry for you.

 I have to agree with AgileGSD here. I know reputable breeders who have produced HD (in GSDs) and elbow dysplasia (in a lab). Should those breeders just euthanize the puppies and pretend they never existed? I don't think that's humane, but I also don't think a breeder can guarantee every puppy will be totally perfect- Breeding isn't like that. Too many things are polygenetic or suspected to be genetic, or have environmental factors as well.

A lot of the USDA regs would be great if they were enforced, but that department is waaaay underfunded and understaffed.  Without the manpower to enforce the current laws, you'll have a ton of issues like what's been described on this thread.

I believe in the last few years there was at least one unfunded mandate that was trying to target mills but there were no inspectors to implement it - THAT is the problem.

Additionally, there is a major loophole in the commercial breeding laws last I heard: if you sell direct to the public you do not fall under USDA regulation, *only* if you sell to a third party like a broker or petstore.

eta: there are 102 inspectors for all qualifying animal facilities in the ENTIRE US - that should outrage everyone!  Perhaps some of our energies should go into convincing the government that upping enforcement funding is the way to go as a first step in combating mills?  USDA Animal Care's annual reports can be quite interesting - it really highlights all the things they do and the immense amount of tasks they are supposed to handle.

Pwca

 I have to agree with AgileGSD here. I know reputable breeders who have produced HD (in GSDs) and elbow dysplasia (in a lab). Should those breeders just euthanize the puppies and pretend they never existed? I don't think that's humane, but I also don't think a breeder can guarantee every puppy will be totally perfect- Breeding isn't like that. Too many things are polygenetic or suspected to be genetic, or have environmental factors as well.

Not to mention that not all HD is crippling and it is only one factor.  Personally I'd rather have a dog with mild HD than a dog with an unsound temperament.  The former is easier to manage and actually healthier for the dog's overall wellbeing.

I would like to see parent clubs take up this torch and set higher standards for breeding and being on their breeder lists.  I know so-called reputable breeders who have high up positions in breed organizations that are really anything but ethical.  The WDA recently suspended and fined a very prominent breeder for dying dogs' hair, breaking their tails, and surgically implanting testicles. 

But again, this assumes that buyers really care about the quality of their dogs and the ethics of the breeder....and too many buyers simply don't.

 I agree that certain ailments cannot be predicted.  Two dogs with good hips can produce a dog with HD.  But, that isn't the same as saying that it's ok to operate a volume puppy producing operation that breeds females too early and way too often, separates pups too soon so the shipping schedules can be met, overlooks the importance of sanitation and normal play among the puppies, breeds without any concern for TRYING to scan for genetic disorders, and is only concerned with the pup for the 72 hours after sale.  These are not good breeding practices, and volume farming of dogs leads to the same kind of abuses that are common in any type of factory farming of livestock. The difference, however, is that these puppies are ending up in people's homes with their kids. 

I realize that certain organizations would like to limit pet ownership, and I do not support them.  However, it is the very mills and byb's who flood the market with dogs that come from questionable breedings, filthy situations, and environments that make them a temperamental nightmare, that are fueling these organizations' zealousness.  If breeders don't police themselves, and they won't, human nature being what it is, then these orgs will succeed.  But, it won't be the fault of those who simply saw disgusting and disreputable practices and railed against them, it will be the greed of the mega breeders.

spiritdogs

I realize that certain organizations would like to limit pet ownership, and I do not support them.  However, it is the very mills and byb's who flood the market with dogs that come from questionable breedings, filthy situations, and environments that make them a temperamental nightmare, that are fueling these organizations' zealousness. 

  Not true. These organizations simply use such scenerios ("puppy mills", dog fighting, animal abuse) as a chance to fundraise and push for laws to further their agenda. The AR mindset is that breeding dogs is in itself unethical, greedy and done only by the worst sort of people. Go on some AR message boards some time and see for yourself what the opinion is. They are not just against commercial breeders, they are against ALL breeders. They have targeted commercial breeders because it was easy to get pet owners, rescue/shelter workers and breeders wishing to be seen as "responsible" to side with them in a fight against "puppy mills". Even the term "puppy mill" is an AR term that has no real meaning, people use it to describe all commercial breeders, "bad breeders", breeders who neglect their dogs, breeders who "breed too much", breeders who produce dogs with genetic problems or a breeder that ones disagrees with for any reason. Divide and conquer. Turn breeders against each other, get breeders themselves to support anti-breeder laws in attempt to separate themselves from the "bad breeders".

  This has proven to be very successful and it is a large part of why MSN laws and anti-breeding laws are being put in place across the US. Breeders can't police themselves to protect against the AR movement and it is not the fault of breeders that AR has become what it has become. A large part of the AR movement is based on the idea that breeding (and owning) domestic animals is, itself wrong to do. That is what is fueling these organization's zealousness. That is why it is a bad idea to support these organizations, even if you feel they are right on some issues. Because the time will come when you become the target, regardless of who you are.

could you maybe drop the AR stuff? as this is NOT what my post was about?

Bad breeding, BYB's and puppy mills are COMPLETELY different things. Puppy mills - are puppy farms. Where dogs are bred, over and over again - producing as many pups as possibly for profit. No regard is given to temperment, health, and the overall safety of the pet. These 'breeders' do not care where their pet ends up - as long as they get their check they are happy.

If you want to breed - FINE! But do it right. Do the proper tests, breed the proper tempernent and care about your dogs. But to treat a dog like a vending machine - to pop out a pup whenever they need it is WRONG, and I don't care how you look at it. If you want to breed - that is your business, and I'm not here to tell you not to. Breeding is not for me, I don't have the desire to do it - nor the knowhow. I'm very content with my shelter mutts. But if you are going to breed - be responsible about it.

If you think I'm posting just to fundraise - then you are completely off your rocker. I'm here to educate - just like everyone has been talking about. These are serious issues that cannot be swept under a rug. These houses are HORRIBLE - and the smell lingers for WEEKS on the animals. Bath after bath does not wash it away. Urine stains on the paws stick for MONTHS. Broken bones, dead dogs, and dogs with splayed feet from standing on metal cages for years are proof that people like this need to be stopped. If you think this is ok - then I really encourage you to go with a rescue to raid one of these houses. THEN tell me it's ok - and all an 'AR movement/scam'

I believe my baby came from a puppy mill. I got him from a pet store in NJ. He ended up getting meningitis relapse a total of 3 x's in 2 years. Hes a very shy dog, afraid of noises and people- mostly men. I got him when he was about 8 weeks old.

Im scared to think what would have happened to him if I didnt adopt him. Its such a shame what some people put these poor babies through.

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vote for tucker!

AgileGSD

spiritdogs

I realize that certain organizations would like to limit pet ownership, and I do not support them.  However, it is the very mills and byb's who flood the market with dogs that come from questionable breedings, filthy situations, and environments that make them a temperamental nightmare, that are fueling these organizations' zealousness. 

  Not true. These organizations simply use such scenerios ("puppy mills", dog fighting, animal abuse) as a chance to fundraise and push for laws to further their agenda. The AR mindset is that breeding dogs is in itself unethical, greedy and done only by the worst sort of people. Go on some AR message boards some time and see for yourself what the opinion is. They are not just against commercial breeders, they are against ALL breeders. They have targeted commercial breeders because it was easy to get pet owners, rescue/shelter workers and breeders wishing to be seen as "responsible" to side with them in a fight against "puppy mills". Even the term "puppy mill" is an AR term that has no real meaning, people use it to describe all commercial breeders, "bad breeders", breeders who neglect their dogs, breeders who "breed too much", breeders who produce dogs with genetic problems or a breeder that ones disagrees with for any reason. Divide and conquer. Turn breeders against each other, get breeders themselves to support anti-breeder laws in attempt to separate themselves from the "bad breeders".

  This has proven to be very successful and it is a large part of why MSN laws and anti-breeding laws are being put in place across the US. Breeders can't police themselves to protect against the AR movement and it is not the fault of breeders that AR has become what it has become. A large part of the AR movement is based on the idea that breeding (and owning) domestic animals is, itself wrong to do. That is what is fueling these organization's zealousness. That is why it is a bad idea to support these organizations, even if you feel they are right on some issues. Because the time will come when you become the target, regardless of who you are.

You don't have to lecture me on supporting those entities, because I do not - however, I also do not support unregulated (due to insufficient staffing or any other reason) volume breeding of dogs in filthy facilities or with no consideration of their health and well being.  I think that your points about AR are well taken, but you have to admit that not enough is being done to help the situation of dogs who find themselves in those disgusting and disreputable facilities. 

 I am totally against PIPPY MILLS .I just bought a puppy from one in Lancaster Pa.He was shut down the pup I resced was a lucky one.She is a beaut,Biewer Terrier.This man has been arreseted,I am a breeder ,but responsable.dogs do not deserve to be treated like lab rats in a cage sacked on top of each other.My dos are free roamed on a 2000 ac farm on a mountain .I also rescue from the pound.The people who get pets from me must sign a spay/neut contract then I call in a few months to check.Being a resposable Pet owner is teaching the world

If you are a breeder, I would hope that you have no plans on breeding your puppy mill rescue Biewer.  And, I really hope you aren't planning to breed it back to a Yorkie.   Also, it might help if you turn on your spell check or type a little slower:-)

spiritdogs

If you are a breeder, I would hope that you have no plans on breeding your puppy mill rescue Biewer.  And, I really hope you aren't planning to breed it back to a Yorkie.   Also, it might help if you turn on your spell check or type a little slower:-)

 

Don't hold your breathe Anne.  This person also breeds "Imperial" Shih Tzus. 

spiritdogs

You don't have to lecture me on supporting those entities, because I do not - however, I also do not support unregulated (due to insufficient staffing or any other reason) volume breeding of dogs in filthy facilities or with no consideration of their health and well being.  I think that your points about AR are well taken, but you have to admit that not enough is being done to help the situation of dogs who find themselves in those disgusting and disreputable facilities. 

  I agree and did question why no one is trying to get better enforcement of current laws concerning high volume breeders. The answer is because that isn't what makes HSUS and PETA money and that doesn't help further their agenda.

erica1989

could you maybe drop the AR stuff? as this is NOT what my post was about?

  You posted an article that included AR propaganda that was intended to be taken as fact and influence people reading it to support the cause. The article included a link to an AR website portrayed as a good resource for people wanting to learn more about the subject.

erica1989

If you think I'm posting just to fundraise - then you are completely off your rocker.

  I didn't suggest you were trying to fundraise but the the article you posted certainly can help fundraise for HSUS. Their Stop Puppy Mills website which was linked to in the article, has DONATE NOW as the top button of their menu.

erica1989

 These are serious issues that cannot be swept under a rug. These houses are HORRIBLE - and the smell lingers for WEEKS on the animals. Bath after bath does not wash it away. Urine stains on the paws stick for MONTHS. Broken bones, dead dogs, and dogs with splayed feet from standing on metal cages for years are proof that people like this need to be stopped. If you think this is ok - then I really encourage you to go with a rescue to raid one of these houses. THEN tell me it's ok - and all an 'AR movement/scam'

There are already regulations in place concerning everything you just brought up. Instead of pushing for "more laws!!!" and helping further HSUS and other AR orgs agendas, why not push for better enforcement of the current regulations?