pet UNDER-population-the facts

HoundMusic

These dogs are not being adopted out because they are simply not adoptable - not because there is any overpopulation problem

And again we disagree. Dogs sit in shelters because there are so many. Hardly because they are not adoptable. Do I think that every dog is a great fit for anyone? No way. Different dogs have different needs. I would not send a greyhound home with a cat and a small child any faster than I would send home a chihuahua wit ht that same family. Would I be more inclined to send home the pit or the lab with that family? Yes. Why? Because different breeds have different needs.

Again, I do not feel that there are 'bad' dogs. My dog has any behavioral problems. Yet - he is the perfect dog for me. His temperment matches exactly to what I am looking for in a dog. Would he be ok in a different home? H*LL NO!

And... I'm not sure what you have against pit bulls - but I have no problems with them - and have fostered quite a few. They are excellent family dogs, and do very well with children.

HoundMusic

dogs would still be crowded into shelters.

SO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! We can sit here, and preech all day about how great our own dogs are. We can rant and rave all we want - but at the end of the day, those same dogs are still sitting on that same slab of concrete. By talking down rescues, and encouraging people to only buy from breeders, you are not helping the dogs that are already here. If you want to breed - fine. That's your thing - I would never buy from a breeder, nor breed my own pets. I see too many animals sitting in kennels all over, I do not want feed into the publics demand for a puppy. I encourage people to adopt the older dogs. We do not list our puppies on petfinder - because we want the older ones to find homes. We want the dog that has been there for 4 months to find his loving home. I would never tell someone not to get a puppy - some people want one, and that's their deal. But I always tell people about the benefits of adopting an older dog - because they are the ones being put to sleep because no one comes for them.

agilebasenji

<in the San Diego area. There is a huge difference between a rescue and a person selling an import pup in a parking lot. >>

 

A huge difference in ethics - yes, but perhaps not so different in terms of the health of the puppy.  And while some of the puppies mentioned in the article are being sold in parking lots, others are being imported by rescue groups.

quote:

One rescue group -- Save a Sato (Spanish slang for mixed breed) -- has brought an estimated 14,000 dogs from Puerto Rico to the United States since its founding in 1996, according to Massachusetts volunteer Twig Mowatt.

The island is home to thousands of abandoned and abused dogs in need of homes.

"It's a beautiful thing," said Mowatt, who herself adopted a terrier named Rico. "People are really desperate for an adoptable dog, and they don't want to go to pet stores or breeders. Otherwise there would be nothing."

In Massachusetts, where many of these dogs are adopted by shelters, puppies must be held for 48 hours before being released to homes to watch for signs of illness.

But protocol failed in 2004, when one puppy was diagnosed with rabies during quarantine at a shelter in Cape Ann, Mass. The puppy -- only several months old -- developed neurological problems consistent with rabies and was euthanized, according to Donna Rheaume, a spokesman for the state department of health.

A state lab confirmed the animal had rabies, she said, and all who had handled the dog were given preventive treatment.

I was speaking very specifically about the San Diego region, which is what I am familiar with.

I can see how a rescue might do more harm than good in importing foreign dogs without being careful. There is a difference between importing foreign dogs into the U.S. (and Puerto Rico is not mainland) and transporting American dogs from overcrowded areas to less crowded areas. I don't understand what is so objectionable about that sort of transport?

agilebasenji

One rescue group -- Save a Sato (Spanish slang for mixed breed) -- has brought an estimated 14,000 dogs from Puerto Rico to the United States since its founding in 1996, according to Massachusetts volunteer Twig Mowatt.

 14,000 dogs brought into this country's shelter/rescue system from just one group. How is this issue so largely ignored while breeders are portrayed as the reason dogs are dying in shelters? If there is an overpopluation problem across our country (a "crisis" as is often said), how can anyone justify bringing foreign dogs into US shelters?

Dog_ma

I can see how a rescue might do more harm than good in importing foreign dogs without being careful. There is a difference between importing foreign dogs into the U.S. (and Puerto Rico is not mainland) and transporting American dogs from overcrowded areas to less crowded areas. I don't understand what is so objectionable about that sort of transport?

Importing from the US makes sense since there are regional differences in the population numbers but when a shelter imports from another area within the US and then turns around and crys about how there is such a overpopulation problem in their local area and demands laws be passed to "solve" their local situation.  That is what people get so up in arms about.  There was a large non-profit shelter in the Palm Beach area that was doing just that, showing how many dogs they adopted each year and that there was such a overpopulation problem in the local area, well when you did a close look at the numbers 3/4 of the dogs they were adopting were coming from out of the state.  Right after the breeding restriction law went into place this shelter the next week advertised that they got 30 dogs from out of state (small dogs of course) and they would were able to place all within a couple of days.  Then a week later they brought another 60 in and again the same thing.

timsdat

Importing from the US makes sense since there are regional differences in the population numbers but when a shelter imports from another area within the US and then turns around and crys about how there is such a overpopulation problem in their local area and demands laws be passed to "solve" their local situation. 

Hey, I am opposed to mandatory s/n, and limits on the numbers of dogs a person breeds. I have never supported any of that garbage. So I fully agree that REGARDLESS of moving dogs regionally, stupid legislation is stupid legislation. There is a lot of stupid legislation out there right now, sadly.
 

erica1989

HoundMusic

The fact that there are not massive amounts of small purebreds in the shelters

Have you looked at petfinder.com? Pick a small breed - and just look and see how many results you get. I'm willing to bet the number you'll pull up is a lot greater than anything you think of. Same goes for large pure-breeds. Look at all the breed resuces. Would there be a need for them, if people weren't popping out litter, after litter of "AKC registered pups?"

This is not true in all parts of the country as I just did a search on petfinder and here is what I came up with

The closest dog of the purebred that I want is 378 miles from here that is 7 hrs and 11 min. Also this is a special needs dog which DH would never let me get. You have to keep peace in the family. This dog is not in my state either AS there are none in my state.

next

710 miles = 11 hrs and 29 min. from here with no picture and no info on the dog on the web site. Don`t know if they adopt out of state either.

next

1,308 miles away

1,558 miles

1,902 miles

1,902 miles

1,894 miles

1,636 miles

1,690 miles

and this is assuming that they are indeed purebred dogs and not mixes. And I`m not saying that these shelters adopt out of state either as I didn`t look as they are soooooo far away to start with.

Not all rescues are even on petfinder, and many do not list the dogs that get adopted fastest. We rarely list our small breed dogs - as they do get homes faster than the larger dogs. You have to call around, and check with breed rescues. Dogs that you are looking for are you there - you just have to look for them. The perfect dog wont fall into your lap.

erica1989

Not all rescues are even on petfinder, and many do not list the dogs that get adopted fastest. We rarely list our small breed dogs - as they do get homes faster than the larger dogs. You have to call around, and check with breed rescues. Dogs that you are looking for are you there - you just have to look for them. The perfect dog wont fall into your lap.

 I have known people who have been on shelter waiting lists for months for young, small breed dogs or purebred puppies.

Just picking this spot to reply.

I know just enough about breeding to stay out of breeding.

The thread topic was a pet under-population. The notion that there is a pet under-population is an erroneous one. As to breeding, that's another matter. In my limited understanding, a legit breeder does not mix breeds. So, why do I have a dog that is a mix of Siberian Husky and Lab? Why did I see a Labradoodle, the "hypo-allergenic" answer to everyone's prayers sitting in the Dallas SPCA and smelling to high heaven? On the converse, how come I found a Shiba Inu at the one shelter in my rural county?

So even all the good intentions don't keep purebreds out of the shelter and the mix breeders aren't stopping anytime soon. There is no shortage of pets.

And I don't know of anyone here who has cut down actual breeders. What we do have issue with is irresponsible breeders and those who haphazardly breed a mix to satisfy someone's "cute dog" jones.

So, to answer the original topic, the notion that there is a pet underpopulation is equivalent to something Shadow left in the yard when he assumed that special squatting position.

ron2

So, to answer the original topic, the notion that there is a pet underpopulation is equivalent to something Shadow left in the yard when he assumed that special squatting position.

ROFL. That's exactly what I have been trying to say this entire thread....only - you put it so much more eloquently that I have.....

Now, I'm the last person to think that simply because an opinion is popular that it's correct, but it says something to me that there are so few people willing to entertain the notion that there is a pet underpopulation. Perhaps the overpopulation isn't as bad as some people think it is, or maybe there's an underpopulation in a few, select areas, but the idea of a nationwide pet SHORTAGE is rather ridiculous and I think almost everyone is willing to acknowledge that.

As for breeders, some people HAVE knocked breeders, in this thread and in other threads. Unless you believe in having dogs go extinct, however, I don't see how anyone can see responsible breeding as a bad thing. The ideal situation would be that ALL dogs were aquired from responsible breeders, owners were always responsible, and dogs would only ever be rehomed in extreme cases, in which case it would become the breeder's responsibility to care for the dog. Now, I don't believe this scenerio will ever be accomplished, however, I don't think that simply because the reality doesn't match the ideal that the ideal should be completely dissolved.

Homeless dogs are a symptom of irresponsible breeding and irresponsible owners. The biggest tool to fight these things is most likely education, education, and more education. Of course, adopting homeless dogs is very noble. Of the three dogs I've owned in my life, two were adopted, the other purchased from a responsible breeder. I feel good about all of them! The only thing I would feel guilty about would be if I bought a dog from a backyard breeder or puppymill.

I understand the desire to save dogs, but what I don't understand is the desire to end breeding. Why fight the responsible breeders? If you put them out of commission the ONLY dogs being born would be on accident or from irresponsible people who had no regard for the law. Most breeds would go extinct and the ones left over would be completely ruined. If you stopped breeding all together, dogs would become extinct. I know that's what PETA wants, but I'd like to think that most of the people on this board actually like having dogs around.

There might be an underpopulation of well-bred quality dogs, but in dogs in general...i strongly disagree with. Especially in my area...it's an epidemic. BYBs run rampant.

I 100% have no problem with responsible breeders. I have 2 purebred dogs and am planning on getting another from a responsible breeder in early 2009. I also love heinz 57s (especially boxer mixes) and plan on rescuing a dog in need oneday.

I 150% have a problem when ol' charlie down by the river says, " I got mes a nice lookin' lab...i could get me $200 fer each puppy!" It makes me cringe when people say they want to breed their dogs for money-- and i promise you i hear it at least once a month.

I also hate when people keep their "breeding stock" in kennels all day with no attention. I would NEVER consider a breeder that didn't keep their dogs inside and consider them part of the family.

And we have some legit breeders here, one who is a long-time member. And this person has bred one litter in the 2.5 years that I have been here. One. Count it, one. And it was for the purpose of continuing the breed in a better line. And of course, to provide someone with a pet animal.

I should correct myself. Bad breeding and over-breeding are causing a pet overpopulation and are bound to be related to this topic. If one wanted to say that there is an underpopulation of well-bred and researched purebreds of the various breeds, I might agree with that to an extent because legit breeders don't just breed willy-nilly or purely for the profit motive. A true breeder will have spent so much on tests, care, birthing, first shots, consulting an attorney to properly word the contracts, etc., that they won't make a profit from the sales. Some times, the selling price of the litter will break even with the costs that were incurred ahead of time. And that's the way it's going to be. So, yeah, there could, at times be a shortage of truly superior quality dogs because quality breeders have such high standards. Such as the one we have here that has bred one litter in over 2 years. And that also goes to responsible ownership.

I knew of a lady who owned a Yellow Lab. This dog came from a stellar line of winners dating back for generations on both sides. She had a CGC, Therapy and a long pedigree and all the health certs. And she was spayed, never having bred. That is also responsible breeding. There could be various reasons for that.

As for free enterprise, I like it but I believe it includes responsibility. You can sell motorcycles to anyone. But shouldn't you at least make sure the client knows how to ride one? How responsible is it or how crass and careless do you have to be to sell a motorcycle to someone who is going to go out and wreck it just around the corner, just so that you could "make a profit and fill a market "need""?

I think the question is also owner retention. It was brought up how many families and potential owners there are in relation to how many dogs are in the shelters and rescues. There might be millions of potential owners. But if you introduce the qualification of being competent to handle a pet, the number goes way down. Way on down. Otherwise, it would be easy. All those people would have already signed up with various orgs just waiting for a pet.

As for adopting out a pet, the orgs are going to have to realize that in spite of the interview, people are going to do things they won't agree with. Like treat training. Like Koehler-esque corrections applied in a way that would make Koehler even stand up and say "hey, idiot!" ( I have seen that with my own eyes and I am not exaggerating or stating it for effect.) Some are going to keep their dog outside for periods of time. Others are going to feed their dog Nutro.

Nothing is going to change until people change and realize that pets are more than just property even though, for insurance purposes, they are property. In Texas, for criminal purposes, they are property. In Texas, an owner can be held criminally liable if his dog bites someone hard enough to require hospital attention.

HoundMusic

These dogs are not being adopted out because they are simply not adoptable - not because there is any overpopulation problem

Tell that to my hound, who is a registered therapy dog.   Adopted at age 2 1/2 from the Merrimack Valley Regional Animal Shelter in Newburyport, Massachusetts.  I neutered him, trained him, and voila.

And, tell it to my clients (hundreds of them) whose mixed breed dogs are well mannered and lovely companions.  Their dogs came from places such as MSPCA, Sterling Animal Shelter, Good Dogs Rescue New England, Save a Dog, and various breed rescues, including Yankee Golden Retriever Rescue, which is one of the oldest rescue groups in this area. 

Most dogs in shelters are simply untrained or just adolescent, and don't have any permanent behavioral disability.  Instead of worrying so much about breed, count the numbers of 7-15 month old dogs on petfinder.  I agree that most dogs are incorrectly identified as to breed, but guess what?  Shelter workers aren't the only ones who make errors.  Vets do, too.  And just last weekend, someone asked me if my 1/2 Aussie (yes, we know that for sure - mom was turned in with the litter) was a Field Spaniel.  I've been asked what breed my real Aussie is, too - no one has ever seen the real working style dog up here, and she looks too small to them, has no white collar, and is dark liver red merle - so they ask what kind of a mix she is. 

But, it isn't breed that makes a great dog anyway, it's temperament.  One could ask why you, while slamming the proliferation of Pit Bulls, are breeding Beagles when so many of them are in shelters and rescues all over the country, too.   There is no difference between the capability of a Pit or a Beagle to be a good pet, except that the Pit needs to be managed around other dogs and the Beagle needs to learn a good recall and "leave it" to keep his nose from getting him in trouble.  My own Aussie needed to be taught that you don't herd children.  So, to blame bad behavior on breed is just snobbery and lack of education.  Bad behavior is a combination of genetics, lack of training, lack of socialization and lack of proper husbandry or management.  Someone could take one of your dogs and fail to provide the basics and you would end up with a behaviorally challenged Beagle, too.

BTW, these aren't all mixes, but someone else beside you sure didn't think there were enough Beagles in the world:
http://www.petfinder.com/search/search.cgi?pet.Animal=Dog&pet.Breed=Beagle&pet.Age=&pet.Size=&pet.Sex=&location=01938 

Not that I think responsible people shouldn't breed dogs, but IMO, they shouldn't dissuade people from wanting to also support rescues/shelters that ARE doing a good job at providing suitable pets. 

In my opinion, if you have spotted a misidentification of a dog, alert the group that posted the dog that you think he may not be as described, and state your reason.  I've done this, nicely, and it resulted in a better description being made, and hopefully increased the dog's chances for adoption. 

spiritdogs

Instead of worrying so much about breed, count the numbers of 7-15 month old dogs on petfinder.

One of the most insightful comments on this thread!