pet UNDER-population-the facts

Liesje

 The manager told me she is required to keep 4 kennels open (because of strays that must be held or dogs as evidence in court).  That means the rest get euthanized one by one to make up space....

 And my guess would there is not any great effort made to do things another way, just like at my county pound where dogs are killed for space and can be killed for spaced after just three days (or no days if the dog is an owner surrender).

http://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/2008/02/follow-sodium-pentobarbital.html

whtsthfrequency

Shelters "importing" dogs in order to get them out of bad situations, move them from poor, overpopulated shelters, etc (which I can believe) is MUCH different than shelters importing dogs to line their own pockets, (which is rubbish and what the OP was implying).

 What if the shelters are going out of the country to get small breeds and puppies because they have none in their shelter and have a demand for them? If there is an overpopulation problem, bringing in an additional population of foreign dogs would be adding greatly to the problem. Funny how breeders are always blamed for the dogs in shelters (have seen it several times here - if it weren't for breeders, there would be no need for rescue), yet there is no outcry against bringing in foreign dogs by the thousands.

AgileGSD

Liesje

 The manager told me she is required to keep 4 kennels open (because of strays that must be held or dogs as evidence in court).  That means the rest get euthanized one by one to make up space....

 And my guess would there is not any great effort made to do things another way, just like at my county pound where dogs are killed for space and can be killed for spaced after just three days (or no days if the dog is an owner surrender).

http://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/2008/02/follow-sodium-pentobarbital.html

Actually, myself and the person I was helping for the rescue both spoke to her at great length.  She went way out of her way to help us with the dog we were working on.  I also heard from my club owner that the shelter has been in ruin for years but the woman has a reputation of really caring about each individual animal.  She is in charge of everything and makes all the decisions, but how many kennels she has is determined by the county and its budget.  There is great effort made to not have to euthanize their animals for space.  The dog we pulled is just one example of how she went out of her way to get that dog out before it was too late.  She was extremely emaciated, had a large abscess/infection, whip worms, kennel cough, and was in heat.  She should have been the first to go but the manager held her for us, treated her with antibiotics even though they have no budget for vetting, and drove all the way in on her day off to open the shelter and let us get her out.  And that is just one dog.

The problem is that the effort is made by the wrong people, the shelter workers and volunteers, not the people who control the budget...

The problem with importing puppies from other countries:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=3765973&page=1

AgileGSD

 What if the shelters are going out of the country to get small breeds and puppies because they have none in their shelter and have a demand for them? If there is an overpopulation problem, bringing in an additional population of foreign dogs would be adding greatly to the problem. Funny how breeders are always blamed for the dogs in shelters (have seen it several times here - if it weren't for breeders, there would be no need for rescue), yet there is no outcry against bringing in foreign dogs by the thousands.

Bringing in dogs from other countries and other states IS facing opposition from some shelters, rescues and government officials. Is the opposition overwhelming? No and I think there are a few reasons for it. For starters, who wants to say they are okay with litters of puppies being euthanized for space reasons? I also think that for some people there is a perceived nobility in adopting the poor homeless dog from another state---as opposed to the dog from around the corner.

See the post at Yankee Golden Retriever Rescue http://www.ygrr.org/stories/stories-shipping-dogs-to-NE.htm  (BTW for those of you unfamiliar with YGRR, it is one of the oldest breed rescue groups in the country and it has a wonderful reputation.)

YGRR isn't the only group that has publicly shared these thoughts, just the only one I can think of right now.

I guess I don't take issue with rescues and shelters in some areas importing from others (I mean WITHIN the USA), but I simply don't agree that overall, there is not a pet overpopulation problem in this country.

In west Michigan, we have something called KAN (Kent Animal Network), which consists of our Humane Society (not part of HSUS and totally dependent on donations), the county shelter, and a few area rescues.  Most of the time, the county shelter is overrun and euthanizing for space, and most of the time, the Humane Society is not completely full (the reason is b/c you HAVE to make a donation to drop an animal at the HS, but the county shelter is free and ACOs pickup animals).  When one is full and the others are not, animals get shuffled around.  The HS shelter will also work with breed rescues.  We once had a Pointer that REALLY need to go to a Pointer-savvy person, so he got into a GSP rescue.  Often the HS will also host animals from the county shelter at their adoption events.  Who cares what exact shelter the animal was dropped at as long as people are helping to get it adopted?  This is just an example of how saying that some shelters have to import does NOT indicate the lack of an overpopulation problem.  West Michigan has an overpopulation problem.  No matter how many animals the HS transfers from the county shelter, the county shelter STILL has to euthanize for space, so you cannot say that b/c the HS is importing animals, our area's demand for animals is exceeding supply.  Not true.  The KAN has reduced county shelter euthanizations by 15% and the HS's own by 10%.  Better than before, but nowhere close to 100%.  It would have to be 100% to argue that there is no longer an overpopulation problem, right?

Also, like others have pointed out, the demand for animals IS segmented.  At our HS shelter, puppies and toy dogs generally are adopted within days of being available.  Other dogs can take months.  Same with kittens vs. adult cats.  I've had people tell me to my face that they always thought an adult dog would never bond as closely as a puppy, so I can see why this is the case, unfortunately.  So maybe there is a lack of overpopulation as far as puppies and kittens are concerned, but certainly not pets in general.

I had already stated in my first post of this section that I have no problem with people breeding to improve the breed - for showing, working, etc. I DO have a huge problem with people breeding soley for money - that just feeds right into 'pets are property' IMO.

HoundMusic

Would you work and not expect to get paid for your efforts? Unlikely.

Hardly. I concider getting paid for what I do a great bonus. I did what I do for a long time before I was put on payroll. I still volunteer with the shelter I work for, and I help out a friend with a private shelter. I foster, on my own time - and buy most of my supplies out of my own pocket.

HoundMusic

The fact that there are not massive amounts of small purebreds in the shelters

Have you looked at petfinder.com? Pick a small breed - and just look and see how many results you get. I'm willing to bet the number you'll pull up is a lot greater than anything you think of. Same goes for large pure-breeds. Look at all the breed resuces. Would there be a need for them, if people weren't popping out litter, after litter of "AKC registered pups?"

HoundMusic

even the non profit orgs DO make a profit when you consdier donations & fees

Which is why most of your shelters are in budget deficates?

HoundMusic

Many of the private rescues that always have dogs available are hoarders operating as rescues to apply for non profit status and revieve donations.

So... because our kennels are always full - we are hoarders that do not care about the dogs out there?... hardly.

ETA: you breed beagles. Well - I looked up the local beagle rescue, this is just ONE rescue in ONE town. There are tons more. They have 28 listed on their petfinder page. I wonder how many more are in shelters all over the county/state. http://search.petfinder.com/shelterSearch/shelterSearch.cgi?animal=&breed=&age=&size=&specialNeeds=&declawedPets=&children=&status=&id=&internal=&contact=&name=&shelterid=FL389&sort=&preview=1

but there's no problem present here.....

erica1989

ETA: you breed beagles. Well - I looked up the local beagle rescue, this is just ONE rescue in ONE town. There are tons more. They have 28 listed on their petfinder page.

Just to clarify the facts, yes they have 28 dogs listed but only 12 are identified as beagles, the other 16 others are identified as mixes.  Remember also that the Tampa MSA is is over 2.5 million people so I would think that there would be a number of dogs available based on our population.

Also have a question, does you shelter allow dogs to be pulled by breed rescues.  I have heard thru the grapevine that there is a sheltie in a shelter in pinellas and trying to track where it is and see if it can be pulled by our sheltie rescue. 

Liesje

 The KAN has reduced county shelter euthanizations by 15% and the HS's own by 10%.  Better than before, but nowhere close to 100%.  It would have to be 100% to argue that there is no longer an overpopulation problem, right?

 No I don't think that is true at all. There will always be dogs who for health or temperament reasons can't or shouldn't be placed. You will never have a shelter that can place 100% of their animals 100% of the time.

erica1989

Have you looked at petfinder.com? Pick a small breed - and just look and see how many results you get. I'm willing to bet the number you'll pull up is a lot greater than anything you think of. Same goes for large pure-breeds. Look at all the breed resuces. Would there be a need for them, if people weren't popping out litter, after litter of "AKC registered pups?"

 The problem with looking things up on petfinder is you get the purebreds and mixes of those breeds and the breed guesses are often so far off. Also no way to see how many of those small breeds were purchased or imported, unless you go to every page and look.

AgileGSD

Liesje

 The KAN has reduced county shelter euthanizations by 15% and the HS's own by 10%.  Better than before, but nowhere close to 100%.  It would have to be 100% to argue that there is no longer an overpopulation problem, right?

 No I don't think that is true at all. There will always be dogs who for health or temperament reasons can't or shouldn't be placed. You will never have a shelter that can place 100% of their animals 100% of the time.

Right, but when I apply the 15% or 10% to the other numbers published by both shelters, the 15/10% do not make up the difference of the dogs euthanized for non-medical or non-temperament reasons.  I always look at the complete stats when they are published so I know where we stand.  Besides a cat or two, the HS shelter has not had to euthanize for space, but county shelter is still doing it routinely even with KAN in place, though KAN has helped.

rolenta

When I look at the classifieds, I see a tonne of designer dog mixes, usually toy breeds. When I go to the animal shelter, I see heinz 57 large dog mixed breeds who, in all likelihood, were bred completely on accident. I find the breeding of designer dogs and irresponsible breeding to be unethical, but I can't honestly say that I think even they are the cause for most of the dogs in the shelter.

This has been my experience as well.  The vast majority of dogs at shelters  in my area are large mixes - usually of pit bull, rott, gsd.  This may not be the case in othe areas but this is what I see by me.  Most of the general public would not be suitable owners for these dogs (including myself) and besides, breeders are not breeding large mixes so how can it be their fault.  I can't tell you how difficult my experience was when I was looking for a healthy, small dog with a stable temperment from a shelter or rescue.  Long waiting lists and if you did not have an ideal situation like me (no fenced yard, no one at home during work hours) you will wait even longer.  Most of the large scale puppy mills are pumping out toy and small breeds and that is not what I'm seeing in the shelters.  And when they do show up in the shelters they are snatched up quickly by adopters and rescues.  The shelter staff have told me this themselves.  So I think in *some* instances there is a greater demand than supply.  But there is definitely a serious overpopulation problem with large mixed breed dogs. 

 I have seen several rescues in my area with dogs imported from Puerto Rico on Petfinder, once again all small dogs.

agilebasenji

 

The problem with importing puppies from other countries:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=3765973&page=1

 

For those that read this article, not that it is people SELLING puppies (oh everyone wants a cute puppy) that are responsible for the health problems in the San Diego area. There is a huge difference between a rescue and a person selling an import pup in a parking lot.

- - -

(Rant not aimed at agilebasenji) 

I find this entire thread so nauseating!!! I have never been against breeders or breeding, although my heart has always been in rescue. But some of the things I read here at idog, written by self-proclaimed breeders, turns my stomach and definitely makes me think less of the breeding world. I don't feel that way about all breeders - I am privileged to have met many fine breeders who I respect and admire. But it is ironic that the same people who claim to be fighting against "anti breeder bias" are responsible for me developing some anti breeder impulses.

We do have a shortage of PUPPIES. In some areas. In San Diego, puppies are in high demand. Sasha was "imported" from L.A. as a puppy, to one of our private shelters. My friend recently adopted a 5 month old GSD mix that was scheduled to die the next day in Riverside County - a county much poorer and more overwhelmed by unwanted dogs. This GDS mix is a dream dog. He has an excellent temperament, no health problems. He came *this* close to being yet another great dog on a pile of dead bodies. Luckily for him, he was young and cute and a GSD rescue group swooped in and brought him down to San Diego. Oh no! Imported puppies! *roll eyes*

From what I know in the Southern California region, the overpopulation problem has more to do with mixed breeds and "designer" dogs bred for a quick buck. For the most part, it is not purebred dogs who end up in our shelters.  Purebreds are also more likely to get taken in by one of our breed-specific rescues.

So while I do not point my finger at breeders of purebred dogs, I cannot help but be disgusted to read posts that show so little concern or compassion for canine life. If it helps you sleep better at night to think that all those dead dogs were unadoptable messes, hooray for feeling well rested. But perhaps you can spare the rest of us your complacency. *I* care that a fantastic little dog was almost killed because of regional overpopulation. *I* care that other great dogs routinely end up dead for the same reason. *I* am happy to support the transport and "importation" of quality rescue dogs and puppies to areas that have more resources. *I* think that every life saved means something.

I will own purebred dogs in the future. I will own mutts and oopses and what-the-heck-kinda-dog-is-that's. They are all dogs. Their worth does not change because some will have papers. Their quality - of health, of temperament - is not a function of papers.

I am not here to say shelters do everything perfectly. There are flaws in the system, for sure. That doesn't change the tragedy of dead dogs, killed because 2 weeks were up.  

I had already stated in my first post of this section that I have no problem with people breeding to improve the breed - for showing, working, etc. I DO have a huge problem with people breeding soley for money - that just feeds right into 'pets are property' IMO.

      Well, I do firmly believe pets ARE property. We own them. We're not their guardians or their mommies & daddies, and in turn they are not our "furkids". The entire guardian/pets are our children concept feeds into that mindset that no one has the right to breed their animal, period.


Would you work and not expect to get paid for your efforts? Unlikely

Hardly. I concider getting paid for what I do a great bonus. I did what I do for a long time before I was put on payroll. I still volunteer with the shelter I work for, and I help out a friend with a private shelter. I foster, on my own time - and buy most of my supplies out of my own pocket


     That's funny, I can say the same thing.


Have you looked at petfinder.com? Pick a small breed - and just look and see how many results you get. I'm willing to bet the number you'll pull up is a lot greater than anything you think of. Same goes for large pure-breeds. Look at all the breed resuces. Would there be a need for them, if people weren't popping out litter, after litter of "AKC registered pups?" 


     Actually, I have done that, and you'll find a few dozen in the area. Have checked out Poodles, and will come up with 1-3 pages of poodles in areas of the tri state area that are within reasonable range. Sure, I'll come up with a match of 100+ in the search, however those dogs are in shelters several hours away. Now from what I do know, 90% of the poodles I searched for were at small, private shelters. Many are a just a chain of foster homes, there was one matted mess in AC, another at one of the shelters I worked for in '00. Do a search for poodles in 10462. On page two, we start seeing areas that are mid Connecticut, central Jersey, and upstate NY. Some of those areas, I know, will take 1hr 40min to drive to from my zip code. See, you may get a hefty # in your search results, but basically I had 25 dogs to choose from in the NYC/Westchester/northernNJ/beginning of CT area. Quite a few ritzy pet shops downtown, and they all sell poodles. The problem is not the stores, not breeders. It's an owner retention problem, and I am of the opinion that people should take responsibility for their actions, and likewise others should place blame/responsibility where it's due.

ETA: you breed beagles. Well - I looked up the local beagle rescue, this is just ONE rescue in ONE town. There are tons more. They have 28 listed on their petfinder page. I wonder how many more are in shelters all over the county/state. http://search.petfinder.com/shelterSearch/shelterSearch.cgi?animal=&breed=&age=&size=&specialNeeds=&declawedPets=&children=&status=&id=&internal=&contact=&name=&shelterid=FL389&sort=&preview=1

but there's no problem present here.... 

    
     Your point is? Yes, I breed Beagles. I am from NY and don't ship my pups. So are you trying to equate Beagles in shelters in Florida with the fact that I breed? One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. If I had the opportunity to rescue, I do, but I do not consider myself obligated to wipe up the messes of irresponsible people. Dogs in shelters is not a breeder created problem. It's an OWNER problem. Maybe I should stop breeding Beagles because somewhere, there are shelters that are inundated with Beagles @@
     This is the Petfinder Beagle listing for my area: http://www.petfinder.com/search/search.cgi?pet.Animal=Dog&pet.Breed=beagle&pet.Age=&pet.Size=&pet.Sex=&location=10462

     Approximately 15 of the 25 dogs listed on the first page are either not purebred - several do not even remotely resemble Beagles and one is a small pit bull. That's the first page, and I lost count after 15. There were 3-4 that were definitely purebred and in my area. The rest were in parts of central Jersey, upstate NY, and as I mentioned, had little or no Beagle in them. 

     I think you'll get a kick out of the general petfinder list for my zip code. Have fun sorting through all the pit bulls http://www.petfinder.com/search/search.cgi?pet.Animal=Dog&pet.Breed=&pet.Age=&pet.Size=&pet.Sex=&location=10462     
     My point is that you are likely to find a certain breed(s) in any given area, and that's it. Not much diversity. These dogs are not being adopted out because they are simply not adoptable - not because there is any overpopulation problem. It get's ridiculous - people with younk kids and other pets in my area just don't want pit bulls, and even if all breeding was banned and the only dogs one could get was from the shelter, they still wouldn't go to the shelter to get a pit bull - dogs would still be crowded into shelters.

     FYI: I know for a FACT that one of the ladies who lists dogs on that general petfinder list in my immediate area is a hoarder. Another only takes small dogs, already altered, UTD on shots or give sher own shots, no Vet checks, and sell- er - adopts these dogs out for $200+ ... more if they appera to be a desireable breed of purebred.

<>

A huge difference in ethics - yes, but perhaps not so different in terms of the health of the puppy.  And while some of the puppies mentioned in the article are being sold in parking lots, others are being imported by rescue groups.

quote:

One rescue group -- Save a Sato (Spanish slang for mixed breed) -- has brought an estimated 14,000 dogs from Puerto Rico to the United States since its founding in 1996, according to Massachusetts volunteer Twig Mowatt.

The island is home to thousands of abandoned and abused dogs in need of homes.

"It's a beautiful thing," said Mowatt, who herself adopted a terrier named Rico. "People are really desperate for an adoptable dog, and they don't want to go to pet stores or breeders. Otherwise there would be nothing."

In Massachusetts, where many of these dogs are adopted by shelters, puppies must be held for 48 hours before being released to homes to watch for signs of illness.

But protocol failed in 2004, when one puppy was diagnosed with rabies during quarantine at a shelter in Cape Ann, Mass. The puppy -- only several months old -- developed neurological problems consistent with rabies and was euthanized, according to Donna Rheaume, a spokesman for the state department of health.

A state lab confirmed the animal had rabies, she said, and all who had handled the dog were given preventive treatment.