pet UNDER-population-the facts

When I`ve been on petfinder I have found some shelters that import dogs from other countries as well.

under population here no but we have a no kill shelter so the shelter is always full.

Now the problem that I have with some shelters is that they do not adopt out of state, or only adopt to a couple of states, and some have a mile limit that they adopt out to. Where I live we have no kill shelters and that means if you want to dump your dog and the shelter is full you are put on a waiting list for when the shelter has room to take the dog you so want to get rid of. Some even charge a fee to take your dog to re-home it. The only stipulation is that your dog has not bit someone within the last 6 months. If it has you just wait until the 6 months is up then you get on the waiting list. But they do ship, and let dogs be transported out of state to get adopted so the next poor dog can come into the shelter to wait to be adopted. These dogs are vet checked, fixed, shots, what ever that they need. They charge 60.00 a dog no matter the age and 50.00 for a cat again age means nothing. So we know the shelter is not getting rich with those prices. Donations is how they are still doing the work that they do to find homes for unwanted pets.

There has to be a way for shelters to let the dogs be adopted out of state. That way they may be adopted out much faster then they would have room for more. I read of some shelters that you fill out the adoption papers and if approved the shelter contacts a shelter close to you for a home inspection if you pass the inspection some shelters even will help with the transport. One shelter did say if you want to return the dog it was at the adopters expense to get the dog back to the shelter which I think is only right. Why can`t all the shelters do that. I had my eye on a dog in CA. but unless she turns 5 years old or I relocate to CA. I don`t have a chance. Found another in CO. they do not adopt out of state. Oh found two in MT. There you have to drive up to their doorstep to adopt. I know not all shelters are like this but it seems like any of the dogs I was interested in were. Oh Texas was another one that didn`t adopt out of state. It seems like it was never ending.

Just my thoughts and hope I`m not off topic

Most shelters do not adopt out of state because they want the whole family to meet the dog before it is placed. And - if something does not work out - they want the dog back. We don't want our dogs going to different shelters, we know the dog - we want him back to give him another shot at a doog home.

I'm sorry Steve - but this is a topic that we will never agree on.

I see too many dogs turned in day after day - for stupid reasons that have nothing to do with the dog. New baby, allergies, puppy is too hyper, sheds too much, suddenly no time for their 8 year old dog, there are just so many that do not deserve what happens to them. It just sickens me that we try so hard to get these animals into forever homes, and it just doens't happen. Dogs aren't meant to be kept in cages. They belong on someones bed, and at the end of a leash walking through the park. They don't deserve concrete for a bed, or bars for a window. They just don't. And until people realize what really goes on in these shelters, we will have problems. Most dogs surrendered to shelters are pure bred, and most don't have behavioral problems.

I cannot comment on shelters importing. We do not partake in that type of thing - nor do any shetlers near me. There are just too many dogs in our own area to worry about first. I just hope that the shelters taking in these dogs over seas have the best intentions for the dogs.

Every night I go to sleep wondering about the poor momma dog sitting in a kennel - because someone was too lazy to have her spayed. I think about the litter of puppies that was dumped on the front door step. I think about every dog sitting in those kennels, wondering if they will ever find a home. I think about the dogs that didn't make it. I think about the ones that might never find a home. And then I look at my own dog - and wonder what would have happened to him had I not taken him home. I believe every dog deserves a chance. I honestly don't feel that there are bad dogs out there - they just need some guidance.

So there's not pet overpopulation problem. There is no need for spay/neuter laws. I guess all the shelters can close their doors and go home, right?

Shelters "importing" dogs in order to get them out of bad situations, move them from poor, overpopulated shelters, etc (which I can believe) is MUCH different than shelters importing dogs to line their own pockets, (which is rubbish and what the OP was implying).

spiritdogs

I have no problem with responsible breeding, but I do have a problem with you sticking your head in the sand.  Tell the dogs that end up in the dead bin every day that there is no pet overpopulation.  As mudpuppy said, there is a shortage of puppies.  How many adult dogs have YOU adopted, and from which shelters?  If you get the spaniel journal, can we assume that you are a breeder and worried about your bottom line?  How many breeders do you know that tell PET puppy owners to wait to spay/neuter till the animal is a year old???  Have you ever seen a dead bin at a large SPCA?  Do you think that people who work in shelters WANT to euthanize dogs????  Why on earth would they be doing it if there was shortage????????  To me, the only thing there's a shortage of is people who know what the heck they are doing when it comes to dogs.

OH! go you! more power 2 u!

erica1989

I'm sorry Steve - but this is a topic that we will never agree on.

I see too many dogs turned in day after day - for stupid reasons that have nothing to do with the dog. New baby, allergies, puppy is too hyper, sheds too much, suddenly no time for their 8 year old dog, there are just so many that do not deserve what happens to them. It just sickens me that we try so hard to get these animals into forever homes, and it just doens't happen. Dogs aren't meant to be kept in cages. They belong on someones bed, and at the end of a leash walking through the park. They don't deserve concrete for a bed, or bars for a window. They just don't. And until people realize what really goes on in these shelters, we will have problems. Most dogs surrendered to shelters are pure bred, and most don't have behavioral problems.

I cannot comment on shelters importing. We do not partake in that type of thing - nor do any shetlers near me. There are just too many dogs in our own area to worry about first. I just hope that the shelters taking in these dogs over seas have the best intentions for the dogs.

Every night I go to sleep wondering about the poor momma dog sitting in a kennel - because someone was too lazy to have her spayed. I think about the litter of puppies that was dumped on the front door step. I think about every dog sitting in those kennels, wondering if they will ever find a home. I think about the dogs that didn't make it. I think about the ones that might never find a home. And then I look at my own dog - and wonder what would have happened to him had I not taken him home. I believe every dog deserves a chance. I honestly don't feel that there are bad dogs out there - they just need some guidance.

So there's not pet overpopulation problem. There is no need for spay/neuter laws. I guess all the shelters can close their doors and go home, right?

You are awsome! I will be forever greatful for what you do! I volunteer at our animal shelter,but would some day like to have my own. Do I understand right? you have your own shelter? Like I said, GO YOU! I love this reply and I think the OP needs to read it over and over and over again...SLOWLY!

Jessie

Rescuing a dog's life should know no borders.  What a poor excuse to use to justify the importing of puppies for sale.

Izzaboo

I believe that some dogs just aren't meant to be re-homed, either for health or temperament reasons, and those dogs make up the majority of what you see in those kill bins.

 

That's fine if you believe that, but it's wrong in my experience as a shelter volunteer and someone who's been doing a bit of help with rescuing (I do not foster but I help coordinate other things with other local rescues and volunteers).

Take a look at the "URGENT" section on the German Shepherd board.  There are so many in there even with dozens of members that are volunteering time and lots of money daily, and that's just ONE breed.  Most of these dogs are only urgent because their shelters are full and/or they were owner-surrenders.  Strays are required to be held for a certain period of time.  Dogs that are kept because of pending court cases also have to be kept for the duration, and in their own kennels.  That means owner-surrenders are the first to go.  Often the dogs are perfectly healthy and well-tempered.  Many ARE purebred dogs from breeders (I won't say "good" breeders b/c to me any "good" breeder would immediately take back an unwanted dog).  Last month I visited a county shelter in a nearby county.  It's a BIG county that's lot of open farmland, so most people have multiple dogs.  The shelter is basically a lean-to and had less than a dozen kennels.  Some of the dogs were in rabbit cages.  The manager told me she is required to keep 4 kennels open (because of strays that must be held or dogs as evidence in court).  That means the rest get euthanized one by one to make up space....

No, I do not run my own shelter. I am heavily involved with my local non-profit shelter - both on the staff level and the volunteer level. I have many of my own animals, plus foster animals. I do work very closely with an old friend that does own his own shelter. It's not easy stuff.

Izzaboo

  There is NO DIFFERENCE between me making money from the sale of a dog vs. a rescue charging an outrageous adoption fee for the exact same thing

There is a HUGE diffrence! We are looking for homes for animals that irrisponsible people let lose on the streets. YOU are producing MORE animals that you can NOT guarentee will be fixed and it is possible for them to reproduce, therefore being MORE animals for us to find homes for. It all comes back to the breeders!

Don't think it's just you. Because, unfortionatly my cousin is a breeder and I hate it!

I am not anti-breeder, just to give that idea a rest.  I have rescued dogs all my life, and only just this year purchased a dog from a breeder, so as you can see, I'm interested in responsibly bred purebreds as well.  But, this statement:

I believe that some dogs just aren't meant to be re-homed, either for health or temperament reasons, and those dogs make up the majority of what you see in those kill bins.

proves ignorance of what is really going on in shelters.  Firstly, everything depends on the part of the country you are talking about.  Some very nice dogs get PTS up here in New England for no other reason than that most people aren't looking for large Pit, Husky, Shepherd, Rott, and Shar Pei mixes.  Because pet owners have gotten so good at spaying and neutering, we don't have the lovely little Spaniel mixes, or herding mixes, or hound mixes here any more.  Now, we have predominantly large-breed mixes and the trend here is toward wanting a smaller dog.  Many reasons for that, not the least of which is that the population here is aging somewhat faster than in some parts of the country.  At any rate, it's also why shelters and rescues here are involved in transport from high kill areas in the South.  We have a demand that cannot be met because people will NOT adopt the larger dogs no matter how nice they are, and they have dogs that have no chance if they stay in TN. GA, AR, etc.  But, that doesn't mean that the dogs in the dead bin are all behaviorally challenged.  Sure, any shelter will elect to euth the fear biters, the resource guarders, and the socially retarded dogs first.  But, when they are gone, and they need cage space, it can boil down to which dog they think is more adoptable, not which dog is a jerk. 

And you assume incorrectly when you say that there is no difference between you charging for a puppy and the rescue getting an adoption fee.  If all breeders were responsible, there would be no need for rescues to be so overwhelmed, and their donations would probably cover the cost of vaccines, worming, medical care, food, and the water bill.  As it is now, they must recover those costs or be unable to help the next dog that comes along.  You are making money, they are breaking even - maybe.  I don't have a problem with you making money, so long as you are putting quality dogs on the ground and standing behind them for life.  But, please don't tell me there's no overpopulation - instead tell me which shelters you go to that have a 100% adoption rate of healthy well-adjusted dogs and ONLY kill for behavior or ill health and never for space.  I'll show you either a shelter that lies, or one that only lets the most desireable dogs walk through the door in the first place.  Or, I'll show you a no kill shelter that adopts out iffy dogs to families rather than euthanize.

Moderator speaking...

This thread needs to remain a civil discussion, free from rude comments, or cutesy plays on words intended as such. This is a request for ALL posting.

Thanks.

" I believe that some dogs just aren't meant to be re-homed, either for health or temperament reasons, and those dogs make up the majority of what you see in those kill bins.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!?? You obviously have no clue what goes on behind a shelters doors. You want facts? I have facts. Shelters are in places because people breed cute little puppies.  These cute little puppies grow up to be shoe eating dogs, and are not so cute anymore. So these former loving families dump the formerly loved puppy on a shelter doorstep, and don't look back. THAT'S a fact. Shelters are not doing what they do for money - sorry. try again. I work at a shelter, not for the amazing salary - but because I CARE about these animals that no one else cares for. I have many animals of my own - all rescues. I will NEVER buy from a money-hungry breeder, not my thing. I would rather save an animal."

     I was trying to stay out of this but ...

    Please don't assume that breeders and/or those who dispute the overpopulation problem do not have an insider's view of the shelter or rescue system. It's been several years that I've personally been involved in rescue - this goes for both paid and volunteer work at two local shelters (one a no kill, the other a low kill) plus being involved in "private" rescue. There is most certainly an *overcrowding* problem, especially in regards to animal control facilities that are obligated to take every dog that is brought to them, and certain areas of the country have problems with either strays or owner surrenders - neither are a breeder created circumstance. Consider also that the majority of dogs in shelters are mutts & large breeds at that, and consider also that the vast majority of high volume breeders will not touch large breeds. The fact that there are not massive amounts of small purebreds in the shelters actually denotes the fact that the problem is something else besides breeders.
     I also resent your grouping of breeders in the "money hungry" category. Breeders work. Whether they are show breeders who have one litter, or commercial breeders with several, raising a litter consumes a vast amount of time, energy, rescources. Would you work and not expect to get paid for your efforts? Unlikely. 
     There is also a very credible issue that you are brushing off - the fact that many shelter dogs do have health or temperament issues. Now, it's normally due to a blunder the original owner made, tho not always. Still, the fact remains that not many people would surrender a perfectly trained, well behaved, housebroken, mentally stable dog. I've had the displeasure of meeting quite a few shelter people who are as dishonest as they come - they knowingly adopt out dogs with temperament problems then cover their @$$ with a contract stating they are not responsible for bites, etc. They mislead owners about the dog's age, breed, or health status. Many of the private rescues that always have dogs available are hoarders operating as rescues to apply for non profit status and revieve donations.
     Look, it's great that there are people who do rescue, and I know many people devote their lives to it. What turns me sour to most rescues/rescuers is how they berate breeders to no end. In general, they tend to berate most who don't care for their dogs exactly as they do. Someone recently was venting on another dog board how horrible people were for asking her about the medication one of her rescues needed to be on- couldn't they just accept him  Ridiculous. Rescuers are usually the ones who tend to place the animal above the human, and I cannot tolerate that mentality. They can be judgemental about how others care for their dogs. They say they love what they do but are the first ones to turn around and knock the breeders or owners they got their dogs from. I can remember a few years ago, helping out a neighbor whose mother was going into a nursing home - she'd had a minor stroke after previously being in great health, and just couldn't manage on her own anymore. She had a cat and a little Benji type terrier mix that needed to be rehomed. So I contacted a few rescues for her. There was one yuppy place downtown that wrote me back a completely uncalled for, nasty response - completely in poor taste. Towards the end of the woman had no business having animals in the first place (yeah, she knew she was going to have a stroke) and this whole situation was disgusting to her. Wow.
     My long winded point is that rescue people really have no business knocking breeders. You love what you do - great. To each his own. But don't go calling breeders money hungry when rescuers have their own skeletons in the closet. Rescue, save for the obligatory service provided by animal control, is a profit driven enterprise. Maybe the people who do private rescue don't see it, but you can bet with 100% certainty, even the non profit orgs DO make a profit when you consdier donations & fees - which can sometimes get up there in the hundreds. They try to "save" every dog that comes through and often adopt out dangerous dogs. They are largely unregulated and not required to be licensed. Should a breeder try some of the tactics rescues do, you could bet the PETA people would be at our doors with the pitchforks ...

Wow, what an interesting topic! I'm going to have to say that in general, extremists on either end of any issue are usually wrong. The truth can almost always be found in the moderate middle, which is where I stand on this issue. I don't believe that there is a pet underpopulation, in that I don't believe for a second that shelters are scrambling to find pets just so they can line their pockets and perpetuate a myth. That doesn't seem at all reasonable to me. On the other hand, I think AR extremists are also being unreasonable when they point the accusatory finger at breeders and say, "YOU'RE putting dogs in the shelter!"

When I look at the classifieds, I see a tonne of designer dog mixes, usually toy breeds. When I go to the animal shelter, I see heinz 57 large dog mixed breeds who, in all likelihood, were bred completely on accident. I find the breeding of designer dogs and irresponsible breeding to be unethical, but I can't honestly say that I think even they are the cause for most of the dogs in the shelter.

I certainly don't think there's an underpopulation, though. Underpopulation implies that there aren't enough dogs. Well, there are. Anyone who wants a dog can get one, which to me signifies that there certainly is not an underpopulation. I think it's even fair to say that anyone looking for a well-bred puppy with a good temperament and good health can come by one fairly easily.

Also, what's the problem with importing dogs anyway? It doesn't mean that there's no overpopulation, it means that the "underpopulation" is concentrated to certain areas. So what if a shelter imports dogs from somewhere else? Good for them for helping those dogs.

As for overpopulation, I don't think the term is exactly accurate because it implies that there's a problem with the actual number of dogs. There are certainly enough resources to care for the dogs that exist and then some. It isn't a matter of too many dogs, it's a matter of too few people willing to care for those dogs properly - or unwilling to care for those particular dogs which happen to need homes (perhaps they'd rather have the well-bred, well-socialized puppy).

So, what I'm saying is that there is a problem. There are animals in shelters being euthanized, therefore there's a problem. I don't know what the solution is, but I hardly think it's fair to put the responsibility entirely on breeders' shoulders.

Wouldn't it be nice if there were no extremists and all the breeders and shelter workers could just get along and realize that they all care about dogs? There are bad apples in every group of people, but let's not make broad statements about shelter workers being liars and manipulators and breeders being money-hungry jerks who don't care for the welfare of their puppies or dogs as a whole.

erica1989

Most dogs surrendered to shelters are pure bred, and most don't have behavioral problems.

 You don't honestly believe most dogs at shelters and pounds are purebred do you? Do you have facts to back that up? When I go to pounds I see some purebreds of certain breeds (GSDs, APBTs, Beagles, Labs) and lots and lots of mixed breeds. Not that there is anything wrong with mixed breeds but I have yet to see an all breed rescue, shelter or county pound who had mostly purebreds.

 As for behavior issues - people rarely give up perfectly trained dogs. Behvaioral complaints of people thinking about dumping their dogs may seem silly to dog people or are obviously from a lack of training but sometimes there are more serious issues too. Our corgi was at the shelter for chasing and grabbing pantlegs when kids ran. He is also very active, busy and easily overstimulated - things that don't tend fit well into a family who are looking for a lay around the house pet dog. He is a nice dog but was far from perfectly behaved when we got him :)

 I had people come to "behavior night" at the shelter who were thinking of giving up their dogs for any number of reasons. Often once shown that they could manage the issue or train the dog they decided to keep them. Barking, running away when off leash, separation anxiety, destructive behavior, housetraining issues, problems with other pets and resource guarding were some of the most common complaints that people were thinking of giving their dogs up for - some are easy fixes, some not so easy fixes.

erica1989

 I believe every dog deserves a chance. I honestly don't feel that there are bad dogs out there - they just need some guidance.

 I wish all behavioral issues could be fixed but as a dog trainer, I can say for sure that isn't true and sometimes can be heartbreaking for the people involved.

erica1989

So there's not pet overpopulation problem. There is no need for spay/neuter laws. I guess all the shelters can close their doors and go home, right?

 In some areas of the country the shelters remain open not due to "overpopulation" in their area but bringing animals in from other places. I would never support S/N laws.