pet UNDER-population-the facts

Very nicely put Agile, you said exactly what I was trying to get across, albeit a lot better than I did, and hit the nail right on the head.

I wasn't trying to start a heated debate or get anyone up-in-arms-I have shelter horror stories like the rest of you, but aren't we all about learning here?  My original post was to share information and possibly debunk a misconception.

Izzaboo

I believe that some dogs just aren't meant to be re-homed, either for health or temperament reasons, and those dogs make up the majority of what you see in those kill bins.

 They keep these shelters open because someone, somewhere, is looking at their BOTTOM LINE, so they get dogs from where ever they are available to keep donations and adoption fees comming in, not because there are just soooo many dogs that need their help.  There is NO DIFFERENCE between me making money from the sale of a dog vs. a rescue charging an outrageous adoption fee for the exact same thing-no difference-It's always about a bottom line.

I am one who continuously welcomes multiple shelter dogs into my home, rehabs them and then places them.  I do this for the love of the dog.  I have not yet met one dog that was "aren't meant to be re-homed, either for health or temperament reason".  Your statement has to be absolutely ludicrous in saying a majority of the dogs in kill bins deserves it.   I think your post charactizes yourself as to loving the business rather than loving the dog.

As for your comment about shelters looking at their BOTTOM LINE, you must not know any shelter workers or volunteers that run these operations.  They also have the love for the dog.  Any shelter that would be operated as you describe would be quickly pegged and put out of business by the workers and the volunteers.  Or, they would just be consider an after market breeder operation. 

AgileGSD

erica1989

I didn't read it either. I've read too much on that subject already, and put to sleep too many dogs and cats to even be interested in it.

 

 How can you debate against something that you haven't read?

 No one is saying dogs don't die in shelters, just that the reason may not be the "nationwide overpopulation" that AR groups have been pushing for so long. How long did the dogs you killed at the shelter have to find a home? What things were done to promote them to people looking for dogs? What was the criteria was there for determining which dogs lived or died at the shelter? Don't you find it hard to believe the claim of overpopulation across the US, while more and more shelters importing thousands of dogs from other countries (while still blaming US breeders for the "overpopulation";).

As I said in another thread, you anti-AR extremist should only be talking to the AR extremist and leave the rest of us alone.  Whether there is an overpopulation or underpopulation problem, dogs are ending up in shelters and on death row.  Dog professionals and breeders are most certainly doing something wrong and there just has to be a link.  Prove otherwise.

Izzaboo

I'm sure that if reputable breeders banded together against shelter dogs and in favor of well bred dogs produced by by reputable breeders and against the legislations that some are trying to impose upon us, and put it out over the air waves in as big a campaign as the SPCA and PETA do, we would be able to discredit many of the claims they make and convince some of the die-hards.

"banded together against shelter dogs"? What does that even mean? I don't think you're ever going to be able to convince anyone who truly loves dogs that they shouldn't care about dogs being euthanized in shelters every day. Would you show pictures of your purebred puppy and then next show a sad dog in a shelter and say "which would you prefer?"  How do you ever expect anyone to believe that no "problem" exists when dogs are being killed everyday in shelters?

Importing dogs from other states? Umm...it's called TRANSPORT, because the rescues and shelters in THAT state are full....

 
Come down to Southwest virginia, where all 8 shelters within a 60 miles radius are completely full (as in multiple dogs per run, dogs being kept in the admin building, etc), the human societies have six month waiting lists, and every rescue is struggling to support daily turnovers. All of our animals are advertised at the supermarket, on email listservs, on craigslist, on petfinder, posters are put up, you name it. These people work so hard to get these dogs out. It isn't a pet underpopulation, it is an underpopulationof owners desiring and willing to care for a shelter dog.

 
To all these people pushing the no-kill-only view, I have a question for you.

What do you do when your shelter is completely full (I mean you're keeping dogs in the office just to give them some time) and somebody shows up with 6 more dogs that they are dumping. NOW. The human societies are full. The rescues cannot take on any more dogs, as everyone involved already has more than they can handle. What do you do? You don't have the luxury of having time to call around, trying to arrange transport, trying to adopt out more - and anyway, you try these things EVERY day, with no results. No one can take anyone, let alone on this short notice. These dogs are getting dumped now. Would you turn them away to avoid humanely euthanizing dogs you already have for space, and risk this person just taking the dogs out back and shooting them, or leaving them to starve, etc?

 
THIS is the problem that shelter workers DAILY go through in this area. And it is by NO means an uncommon problem. Pet underpopulation. Rubbish.

whtsthfrequency

To all these people pushing the no-kill-only view, I have a question for you.

What do you do when your shelter is completely full...

You can not do anything.  But others can.  In a country that has a population of over 300 millions and 50 million households that have dog, it seems to me a huge untapped resource to look for foster families. 

Izzaboo

I believe that some dogs just aren't meant to be re-homed, either for health or temperament reasons, and those dogs make up the majority of what you see in those kill bins.

 

You cannot be serious. You just can't. MY dog was supposed to be euthanized because there was no space left and he had been at the shelter a whopping 5 days! He has NO health problems and NO temperament problems, like many shelters there was just not enough space to keep him. He was over-looked probably because he is all black (usually the last dogs to be adopted) and slightly older (5-7 years old). He's a great dog, a great companion, and a great family member. I wouldn't trade a single one of his puppy kisses for an entire litter of the most perfect purebred puppies for a breeder- ever. Many great dogs are euthanized due only to space. Yah, I have taken this personal, because it's like someone saying "your dog should've been euth'd"....I have seen many great dogs be euth'd so, please, don't ever tell me "some dogs just aren't meant to be re-homed".

AgileGSD

How long did the dogs you killed at the shelter have to find a home? What things were done to promote them to people looking for dogs? What was the criteria was there for determining which dogs lived or died at the shelter? Don't you find it hard to believe the claim of overpopulation across the US, while more and more shelters importing thousands of dogs from other countries (while still blaming US breeders for the "overpopulation";).

I happen to, thankfully, work in at a very low kill shelter. We have housed dogs for over a year. We do not have timelimits here, but that also means that once we are full -  our doors have to close. We crate as many as we can in hallways - take as many as we can home. We do a TON of promoting - as do many shelters. Our dogs are on TV, the radio, newspaper ads, petfinder.com, amoung other sources. We are constantly out in public promoting our animals - at various events and always out at petsmart.

Take a walk through your local animal control center. See all the strays that people have thrown out. Ask the staff how they deal with their job, knowing that you are breeding cute little puppies that will just end up at their shelter in a year or so.

And in the future - can you please not ask me what dogs I have killed. I find that term horribly disrespectful. I do not enjoy putting animals to sleep, I would not like to be thought of as a dog killer - because that's not the way we try to look at things.

Now - in reference to 'shelters importing dogs' - where are you getting this information? I've heard it a few times - ON THIS BOARD. No where else. Where are these shelters getting the money to bring in these dogs? To pass health inspections, travel expenses - where is all that money coming from?! WHY are these shelters bringing in dogs - is it to give them a better life? I would really love to see some accurate links to information about this.

You can not do anything.  But others can.  In a country that has a population of over 300 millions and 50 million households that have dog, it seems to me a huge untapped resource to look for foster families.

 
I agree with you there, but the questions then increase even more:

How many of those other families want to foster?

How many of those families even want a dog?

How many of these families have a living situation where they can own a dog? 

How many of those families would be willing to foster a shelter dog instead of buying a puggle or a new piano?

And finally, how many of those people would actually make suitable foster homes?

 I think the numbers would be MUCH, MUCH  decreased......
 

We beg people to foster. We advertise everywhere. No one volunteers. Everyone (here at least) who wants to foster, or can foster, usually already HAS dogs and cats, both their own and rescues, and simply cannot take any more.

Honestly, IMO, if there was a huge number of willing fosters, we'd have seen it by now (country-wide, that is) since pretty much every American knows about our country's shelters, stray dogs, pet overpopulation, etc. They may not be extremely well educated about it, but still. It's pretty common knowledge unless the majority of the country lives under a collective rock.

Plus all of the advertising that the wonderful people at rescues and shelters do...I just don't think there is a "market" for it, if you will.

My original post was to share information and possibly debunk a misconception.

And our replies are to share information and debunk *your* misconception..... 

 And in regards to importing dogs from other countries....ludicrous. All the cash strapped rural shelters who have to choose between buying cat litter and antibiotics having the money to buy dogs from Thailand? Please. I would *love* to see some of these sources you have for this info.

You think shelters import animals from overseas because the shelters are "rich" and are trying to get "richer"? That is so ridiculous I cannot even read it without rolling my eyes.

whtsthfrequency

You can not do anything.  But others can.  In a country that has a population of over 300 millions and 50 million households that have dog, it seems to me a huge untapped resource to look for foster families.

I agree with you there, but the questions then increase even more:

How many of those other families want to foster?

How many of those families even want a dog?

How many of these families have a living situation where they can own a dog? 

How many of those families would be willing to foster a shelter dog instead of buying a puggle or a new piano?

And finally, how many of those people would actually make suitable foster homes?

 I think the numbers would be MUCH, MUCH  decreased......

Despite you creating a negative Pollyanna Glad Game, I'm glad it would be an addition to the resources.

erica1989

Take a walk through your local animal control center. See all the strays that people have thrown out. Ask the staff how they deal with their job, knowing that you are breeding cute little puppies that will just end up at their shelter in a year or so.

 I have been to shelters, volunteered, taught classes for shelter dogs, transported dogs, fostered dogs and placed dogs. We even adopted one of our own personal dogs. My puppies have not ended up in shelters and in fact, their breed is not even commonly seen in shelters.

erica1989

And in the future - can you please not ask me what dogs I have killed. I find that term horribly disrespectful. I do not enjoy putting animals to sleep, I would not like to be thought of as a dog killer - because that's not the way we try to look at things.

 I apologize for that - I was assuming from what you posted that you were having to have healthy, sane dogs PTS often. That is indeed, killing as in "high kill" or "low kill" shelters.

erica1989

Now - in reference to 'shelters importing dogs' - where are you getting this information? I've heard it a few times - ON THIS BOARD. No where else. Where are these shelters getting the money to bring in these dogs? To pass health inspections, travel expenses - where is all that money coming from?! WHY are these shelters bringing in dogs - is it to give them a better life? I would really love to see some accurate links to information about this.

 Really it is pretty widespread and easy to find info. If you would have read the article posted, it had quite a bit of info on the subject as well.

 http://www.animalplace.org/dogsrescues.html

http://www.rpaac.org/index.php?id=16 ("Nancy is working on getting as many dogs and cats out of Mexico and into the United States. Nancy and Carolyn Willits of Tucson  are taking as many animals as donations permit to the local Veterinarians for spay/neuter. Nancy is feeding over 200 animals in the city or as much as donations allow.";)

http://www.1-800-save-a-pet.com/adoption_rescue/73189.html

 http://saveasato.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=13&Itemid=29

http://www.cwob.org/latestrescue.html

http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/wynndogrescue.html We work primarily with Second Chance Animal Rescue in Puerto Rico (www.boxer.dreamhost.com -- please check them out!), an outstanding organization on the island that rescues and rehabilitates dogs that are found abandoned, unwanted, and malnourished. These are wonderful and loving dogs, and we bring up monthly rescue transports in order to place them in wonderful and loving homes here in New England.

http://network.bestfriends.org/newhampshire/news/23979.html

http://www.pawsitivematch.org/index_files/Page546.htm

 http://animalsinneed.net/ Prior to the dogs being flown to the northwest from Puerto Rico, they are kept in private foster homes we have set up there for a minimum of three weeks to give us the chance to see the dogs' dispositions, observe personalities and evaluate their individual needs to find the best suited home.

 http://www.mofed.org/Redefining.html

http://activedogs.meetup.com/54/messages/boards/thread/4376386 

http://www.naiaonline.org/articles/archives/humane_insane.htm

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/foreign%20affairs/2008/04/03/150104/15-stray.htm ("Over the past three years, the ARTT and its American counterparts have jointly arranged for 600-plus stray dogs rescued from around Taiwan to find new homes on the U.S. West Coast, Ni said.)

http://www.saveamexicanmutt.org/Home.html

erica1989

Now - in reference to 'shelters importing dogs' - where are you getting this information? I've heard it a few times - ON THIS BOARD. No where else. 

You haven't seen the recent post that the CDC estimates that 300,000 dogs a year are imported into this country.  Have you heard of save-a-sato, pot cakes dogs, meximutts or the highly publicized imports of dogs by best friends and imports from Taiwan (China).  Links to these imports have been posted here in the past so the information is easily available. 

erica1989

you are breeding cute little puppies that will just end up at their shelter in a year or so.

If people weren't breeding dogs there would be no dogs.  Anyway you just showed the cause of dogs ending up in shelters.

erica1989

See all the strays that people have thrown out.

It isn't a matter of the number of dogs bred it's a issue of owner retention.

For years now the breeders have been blamed for all the problems.  Well they are tired of it and not going to take it anymore.  They are tired of the lies and distortions.  You even stated one of those lies here.

money-hungry breeder

People better face up to the fact that there will always be dogs going into shelters, and a certain number will always be put down.  In fact that number will rise as the nationwide population of dogs continue.   Considering that 70% of all the animals entering shelters have behavior problems and shelters are the last resort for people to put down sick dogs, this will always happen.  In fact I expect a rise this year because of the number of people losing their house and abandoning dogs or turning them it.  That has nothing to do with the population figures.