pet UNDER-population-the facts

ron2

And we have some legit breeders here, one who is a long-time member. And this person has bred one litter in the 2.5 years that I have been here. One. Count it, one. And it was for the purpose of continuing the breed in a better line. And of course, to provide someone with a pet animal.

 Does breeding only one litter in over two years some how makes this person more responsible than a breeder who breeds a couple litters a year? Really it depends a lot on what the breeder's goals are and in many cases it is very hard to move forward with a breeding program if you are breeding just one litter every few years. While it may not be PC, the most influential breeders tend to be breeders who produce multiple litters per year. I have no desire to produce many litters a year but I have been averaging one a year for the past four years.

ron2

 I knew of a lady who owned a Yellow Lab. This dog came from a stellar line of winners dating back for generations on both sides. She had a CGC, Therapy and a long pedigree and all the health certs. And she was spayed, never having bred. That is also responsible breeding. There could be various reasons for that.

 LOL so now one can be a "responsible breeder" even if they aren't a breeder? Sounds like the lady bought a pet quality Lab from a show bgreeder to me. FWIW CGC and being a therapy dog don't mean much of anything as far as breeding suitability.

ron2

 As to breeding, that's another matter. In my limited understanding, a legit breeder does not mix breeds. So, why do I have a dog that is a mix of Siberian Husky and Lab? Why did I see a Labradoodle, the "hypo-allergenic" answer to everyone's prayers sitting in the Dallas SPCA and smelling to high heaven? On the converse, how come I found a Shiba Inu at the one shelter in my rural county?

 Here again is where it is shown that you can't make generalizations about breeding. There are breeders mixing breeds for sport and work and are making breeding choices every bit as carefully as breeders breeding working or show dogs. There are also newer breeds that have been developed over the past decade or two as well such as Silken Windhounds or Hangin Tree Cowdogs. These newer breeds came about due to careful mixing of different breeds. There are mixes bred for work such as Mal/GSD crosses, Lab/Golden crosses and Alaskan Huskies. And the sport bred Borderjacks. Not all mixing of breeds goes on for the purpose of selling puppies to ignorant people.

 And there is also this which is quite interesting: http://www.boxerunderground.com/1998%20issues/oct_bu_98/bobtail.htm

RidgebackGermansShep

I also hate when people keep their "breeding stock" in kennels all day with no attention. I would NEVER consider a breeder that didn't keep their dogs inside and consider them part of the family.

     Once a breeder acquires a certain amount of dogs for their breeding program, they MUST kennel their breeding stock. You can't have an active breeding program going with 4 or 5 dogs, and you can't have 10, 15, 20+ dogs in the house. Just because dogs are kenneled does not mean the breeder just leaves them there and deprives them of attention ... Now, I've heard many people claim that if your dogs are in a kennel, you're not a responsible breeder. That is not only erroneous, it's ridiculous. Firstly, most breeders view their dogs as pets or working dogs and not family. And there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't mean pups are any less cared for or socialized. A breeder with more than several dogs, IMHO, would be blatantly irresponsible to keep them all in the home. Have you ever heard of coccidiosis, corona, parvo? Surfaces that accomodate several dogs plus pups need to be bleached down or treated with some sort of heavy duty disenfectant on a regular basis. Can't do that with your wooden floors or rugs. Coccidoisis can spread like wildfire once it's been introduced to the environment. All a pup has to do is step on it's stool and get their paws in the water or feed bowl to get coccidia - it can kill young pups. Can be prevented by using an above ground kennel where the pups have zero contact with their the poop. Corona, forget it. I have it in the enviroment here, and the best way to prevent it from spreading is to bleach all areas where vomit or stools were present. Can't do that in a house.
     Dogs that are kenneled have it better than being crated in the house. Fresh air, sunlight, and a spacious run to stretch their legs. That's what dogs need - they don't require the same types of living arrangements as would a human.

And we have some legit breeders here, one who is a long-time member. And this person has bred one litter in the 2.5 years that I have been here. One. Count it, one. And it was for the purpose of continuing the breed in a better line. And of course, to provide someone with a pet animal.

 Does breeding only one litter in over two years some how makes this person more responsible than a breeder who breeds a couple litters a year? Really it depends a lot on what the breeder's goals are and in many cases it is very hard to move forward with a breeding program if you are breeding just one litter every few years. While it may not be PC, the most influential breeders tend to be breeders who produce multiple litters per year. I have no desire to produce many litters a year but I have been averaging one a year for the past four years.

     That's very true, and just one more aspect of breeding that most people do not understand. One can certainly breed sparingly and porduce top quality show, working and pet dogs, but to maintain your own bloodline, that takes several litters to begin to establish dogs that meet the consistancy of attributes that distinguishes one bloodline from another. It takes quite a few breedings in a relatively short apan of time & frequent culling. You'll probably cull more than you keep back at first!
     My average has been 1-2 litters per year, but am now trying to establish a bloodline. It's going to take several well planned out breedings to give me pups that are what I have in mind - it's inbreeding, outcrossing, then going back in my "line", and mor eimprotantly, keeping as many good bitches as possible, and also going to outside breeders for bitches, then breeding them back to my line. So that will likely mean at least 3-4 litters a year for the next 2-3 years. That doesn't make a breeder who has one litter every two years any more OR less responsbile.

FWIW CGC and being a therapy dog don't mean much of anything as far as breeding suitability.

Well, I might agree where the CGC is concerned, since that requires only basic skills, but to me, being a therapy dog is a sign that the dog has an excellent stable temperament and is certainly one more line on the resume of a dog that might be suitable for breeding for other reasons.  I would hate to think of the work my dogs, and many other gifted dogs, do every day being thought of as not meaning "much of anything", when in fact their jobs are much more important to those they serve than a Best in Show at Westminster.  When I see a dog with agility titles, working titles, obedience titles, AND a therapy dog registration, that might be a dog whose lines I would dearly love to have. JMHO in defense of some great dogs.

HoundMusic

Dogs that are kenneled have it better than being crated in the house. Fresh air, sunlight, and a spacious run to stretch their legs. That's what dogs need - they don't require the same types of living arrangements as would a human.

 

A puppy raised in a house is more socialized than a puppy raised in a kennel. And as a buyer of a purebred pup who lives in a home and not a kennel, I'd like any puppy of mine to have been raised in a home environment.

Obviously this is a personal preference of mine, but it is one I think many pet owners share.

Health is important, but early socialization is just as vital IMO. You can't convince me that a cage is the best place for a puppy to be grow up. I understand that on a certain scale you have to kennel, but I find it far from ideal.

 

Dog_ma

HoundMusic

Dogs that are kenneled have it better than being crated in the house. Fresh air, sunlight, and a spacious run to stretch their legs. That's what dogs need - they don't require the same types of living arrangements as would a human.

 

A puppy raised in a house is more socialized than a puppy raised in a kennel. And as a buyer of a purebred pup who lives in a home and not a kennel, I'd like any puppy of mine to have been raised in a home environment.

     No way, no how! Chances are, most breeders with a kennel are actually IN the kennel for a signifigant part of the day. They're not sitting on the couch, watching TV, while the puppies are left alone. They are outside, interacting with the adults & pups. Pups raised in a kennel are exposed to noises - perhaps different noises than in the house, but they still recieve visual & auditory stimulation. Plus plenty of human contact. 
     My pups are raised in the basement. They're in my home but that alone is not stimulating or contributory to socialization. Even if I had their pen smack in the midst of the living room (which I'd never do), that wouldn't automatically give me socialized pups either. They need to be taken out of their pens, exposed to different people, surfaces, noises. It's a hands on job, and it requires the same amount of effort no matter where the pups are. You can have horribly undersocialized pups that were raise "underfoot" in the home. 
    

spiritdogs

FWIW CGC and being a therapy dog don't mean much of anything as far as breeding suitability.

Well, I might agree where the CGC is concerned, since that requires only basic skills, but to me, being a therapy dog is a sign that the dog has an excellent stable temperament and is certainly one more line on the resume of a dog that might be suitable for breeding for other reasons.  I would hate to think of the work my dogs, and many other gifted dogs, do every day being thought of as not meaning "much of anything", when in fact their jobs are much more important to those they serve than a Best in Show at Westminster.  When I see a dog with agility titles, working titles, obedience titles, AND a therapy dog registration, that might be a dog whose lines I would dearly love to have. JMHO in defense of some great dogs.

 I didn't say anything about the worth of a therapy dog's work - just that it does not, in any way prove a dog is suitable for breeding or prove a dog has a proper temperament for their breed. There is sooooo much more to it than that.

I would never purchase a pup that has spent the first 8 weeks of his life out in a kennel, with no house manners and no house training start. I've seen both litters of house raised puppies, and kennel raised puppies come through - and the ones raised in house are much more friendlier and social. But, then again - I would never buy from a breeder while there are so many dogs in shelters.

HoundMusic

Dog_ma

HoundMusic

Dogs that are kenneled have it better than being crated in the house. Fresh air, sunlight, and a spacious run to stretch their legs. That's what dogs need - they don't require the same types of living arrangements as would a human.

 

A puppy raised in a house is more socialized than a puppy raised in a kennel. And as a buyer of a purebred pup who lives in a home and not a kennel, I'd like any puppy of mine to have been raised in a home environment.

     No way, no how! Chances are, most breeders with a kennel are actually IN the kennel for a signifigant part of the day. They're not sitting on the couch, watching TV, while the puppies are left alone. They are outside, interacting with the adults & pups. Pups raised in a kennel are exposed to noises - perhaps different noises than in the house, but they still recieve visual & auditory stimulation. Plus plenty of human contact. 
     My pups are raised in the basement. They're in my home but that alone is not stimulating or contributory to socialization. Even if I had their pen smack in the midst of the living room (which I'd never do), that wouldn't automatically give me socialized pups either. They need to be taken out of their pens, exposed to different people, surfaces, noises. It's a hands on job, and it requires the same amount of effort no matter where the pups are. You can have horribly undersocialized pups that were raise "underfoot" in the home. 
    

 Oh that's the biggest bunch of baloney I've heard.  Every breeder I met had their dogs in their house. There were runs outside for them to exercise, play, etc., but these were pets, household members and these were top Airedale breeders in the country, so I don't believe it's necessary for good lines or sanitation to have "breeding stock" in a kennel.  

Personally, I think whether or not the dogs can be inside depends quite a bit on the breed. Some dogs get along in large packs and others not so much. For instance, a breeder of shibas or shikokus is much more likely to have a kennel set-up than a breeder of golden retrievers simply because shibas and shikokus are prone to dog aggression and it's unlikely that you will get large numbers of them to interact peacefully. Some people manage to keep several together (I know someone with seven japanese dogs), although the chances that all the dogs you want to add to your breeding program will happen to get along, especially considering they will be intact and there will be heats and puppies involved.

Of course, that doesn't mean they can't ever be in the house. They can certainly be rotated, although that doesn't address the disease concerns that houndmusic brought up.

Then again, I think the need to be inside with the family varies from breed to breed as well. In Japan, anyone who owns a shikoku owns them for hunting. They are kept in kennels and let out long enough to catch a wild boar or deer, and then they go back into their kennels. They aren't considered "pets" at all. Iceland Sheepdogs, on the other hand, are an entirely different story. They were meant to be a real part of the family. They'd follow their people around the farm, working all day, and then come home and curl up with their owners at night when all the chores were done. There are quotes from ancient explorers who visited Iceland saying that you hardly ever saw an Icelander that wasn't accompanied by a dog. Noting the differences, I definitely would never ever ever suggest that an Iceland Sheepdog be kept in a kennel situation or even that they be alone for long periods of time on a regular basis.

It depends quite a bit on socialization as well. Dogs don't need people unless they've been raised to need people. Livestock guardian breeds are bonded to sheep and goats and are perfectly happy spending their time with very little human interaction. Feral dogs spend their time in dog packs and don't suffer (mentally) from the lack of human contact. Puppies meant for companion homes still need to be socialized of course. I know of one breeder who keeps her dogs outdoors in kennels (working with them during the day so that they received interaction, exercise, and whatever other care they need) and takes the pregnant females inside to whelp. She raises the puppies indoors so that they are used to that environment.

So, all that rambling to say that, a dog's need to be inside with the family depends on heritage and socialization. Personally, I think the idea of an "outdoors only" dog defeats the purpose of having them, but that's me. I want a pal and a family member.

AgileGSD

 I didn't say anything about the worth of a therapy dog's work - just that it does not, in any way prove a dog is suitable for breeding or prove a dog has a proper temperament for their breed. There is sooooo much more to it than that.

 

I agree.  My dog has a CGC, RN, and is therapy certified (trained and tested with the local group) but her temperament is NOT suitable for proper GSD breeding.  Even her conformation points/title and good hips can't make up for that. 

No doubt, there are plenty of great dogs as Anne describes that have no titles at all, but being a great dog is different than meeting the breed's standard and excelling at the jobs required of the breed. 

Didn't you say in another thread that Kenya was bred? Something about one of her pups getting a cert. of some sort? Just asking... kinda off-topic, really doesn't relate to this much, but I was just wondering....

BCMixs

Oh that's the biggest bunch of baloney I've heard.  Every breeder I met had their dogs in their house. There were runs outside for them to exercise, play, etc., but these were pets, household members and these were top Airedale breeders in the country, so I don't believe it's necessary for good lines or sanitation to have "breeding stock" in a kennel.  

     How many dogs did they own? I doubt breeders with more than 8-10 dogs would want to have them all free roaming in the house. Oh, I know breeders with more dogs than that who "home raise" their dogs ... in crates. I have 10 dogs now, and I'd invite you to come see how it can get with all of them in the house at once, not even free roaming, but confined to maybe two rooms. They are generally well behaved in the house but in a pack situation, one dog's bad habit will set off the others. I can't imagine anyone having that amount of dogs, or more allowed to have roam of the house. In that case, it's not that the dogs are residing in the house - the people are living in a kennel. Most often though, when a breeder with a good number of dogs keeps them in the house exclusively, the dogs are in crates either in shifts or for most of the day. I have nothing against crating and have a sea of crates in my own house, but the dogs in the house get fed in them, or are confined to them while we're eating. I can't believe that crating a dog constantly is better than kenneling, or that keeping 10, 15, 20+ dogs in the house is mentally healthy. For the people OR the dogs.

erica1989

Didn't you say in another thread that Kenya was bred? Something about one of her pups getting a cert. of some sort? Just asking... kinda off-topic, really doesn't relate to this much, but I was just wondering....

 

Yes, she was before I got her and spayed after that.  I'm not sure why and I never asked.  I'm thinking it might have been an "oops" litter, considering the sire (two totally different lines/types), but I'm really not sure.  She WAS OFA prelim'd, CERF'd, and had her conformation title before that, but still.  If she had not been spayed when I got her, I would have had it done myself.  I have very strict criteria as far as what shepherds should be bred and she would not be one of them.  Her father was a high scoring (100-96-100) SchH competitor in Germany and many of her half-brothers and cousins are great SchH dogs and even police dogs, but Kenya's temperament is weak, which I attribute to a certain experience that was traumatic for her, and the circumstances of her birth (she almost died b/c she was a runt, so she was taken from the mother to be tube fed and probably missed out on learning some things from the mom and pups).  I'm just glad her sons are doing so well. They are getting conformation, obedience, tracking, herding, and agility titles.