Crating/Ex Pens under fire in SC

    • Gold Top Dog

    You should really read my last post.....

    I said I had no problems crating.....and my last post is basically explaining where I think it is abuse.......if an animal is sick, in heat or mega destructive that is one thing.......it's the folks wo abuse the use of a crate I have a problem with....

    • Gold Top Dog

    Ummmm, wow! There sure is a lot of personal sniping and tit for tat going on in this thread.
    • Gold Top Dog
    snownose

    no access to water or food and having to sit in waste

    yea, see that is basic neglect, and is already covered by existing humane laws. the dog can also be isolated to a basement, bathroom, bedroom with no food or water and unsanitary conditions. should we ban basememnts, bathrooms and bedrooms??
    • Gold Top Dog

    Isn't it safe to say that we all have a problem with abuse in any way shape or form.   Whether it be a crate, collar, lack of food, water, lack of Vet care.  Abuse is abuse, I don't really think that pointing out one form makes a difference.  These people were abusive!  Even if they didn't use a crate the conditions and treatment was appalling and and abusive!!

    • Gold Top Dog

    luvmyswissy

    Isn't it safe to say that we all have a problem with abuse in any way shape or form.   Whether it be a crate, collar, lack of food, water, lack of Vet care.  Abuse is abuse, I don't really think that pointing out one form makes a difference.  These people were abusive!  Even if they didn't use a crate the conditions and treatment was appalling and and abusive!!

    Just a bit confused...what abusive people are we talking about here?  Maybe I missed a post somewhere, but I thought this discussion was (well, started out to be about), new laws against crating in South Carolina. Smile

    ETA - I certainly hope no one reading my posts on this thread think I have been snarky at all, because I haven't intended my posts to be anything but a friendly debate.  I love a good debate, as long as it stays civil.

    • Gold Top Dog

    aerial1313
    I love a good debate, as long as it stays civil.

    As do I! Smile

    Moderator speaking.

    There IS a bit of snark on this thread. It needs to cease. It risks ruining an otherwise interesting debate. Take it private or elsewhere please. This is a general warning for all.

    Civil, respectful, self moderate. Thanks!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Quincy
    Here is the South Carolina Bill
    Note - This act becomes effective July 1, 2008
    http://www.scstatehouse.net/sess117_2007-2008/bills/833.htm

    You know we are talking about the personal ownership of dogs be affected but read the ordinance.  It say animals not dogs!  Better not leave those gerbils are left in their cages too long or you are in violation of the law. 

    This could really affect shelters also.  We have all heard that some dogs mentally deteriorate being in the shelter environments too long.  Well the shelters could be held in violation of the law if that happens.

    Thanks for posting the link to the entire bill Quincy. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    timsdat

    Better not leave those gerbils are left in their cages too long or you are in violation of the law. 

    LOL!  On a serious note, though, this is a perfect example of what I was saying about the law being too vague and open to waaay too much interpretation.

    • Gold Top Dog
    aerial1313

    LOL!  On a serious note, though, this is a perfect example of what I was saying about the law being too vague and open to waaay too much interpretation.

    I still have no problem with the laws as written.  I believe the excessive abusers will be the target and that by itself makes it worth it.  Just like so many laws on the books, the average dog owner won't even know its there.  But law enforcement will have the authority to stop the abuse. 


    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU
    I still have no problem with the laws as written.  I believe the excessive abusers will be the target and that by itself makes it worth it.  Just like so many laws on the books, the average dog owner won't even know its there.  But law enforcement will have the authority to stop the abuse. 


     But they already do through cruelty laws stating conditions which are unacceptable.

    • Gold Top Dog

    AgileGSD

     But they already do through cruelty laws stating conditions which are unacceptable.

    So you know every the laws in every state, every county, every community?  Use common sense, no biggey at all with these additional laws.

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU
    So you know every the laws in every state, every county, every community?  Use common sense, no biggey at all with these additional laws.

    The state of SC already had cruelty laws on the books.  It doesn't matter what other states, etc have, as the scope of this legislation concerns SC.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     If this Law will stop owners crating dogs for hours a day then i am 100% for it. I think caging a dog for anymore than 2 hours a day is cruel! I have never used a crate beyond a couple of weeks,during the night with a couple of puppies.

    Dogs are not cage animals,no animals are really(thinking birds etc),but definitely NO to dogs. Sure they like their dens,but when the door is slammed shut it stops being a den and turns into a cage.

    If you get a puppy,puppy proof your darn house,it's not that flippan hard! Like someone else said the main goal should be to let their dogs have free run of the home.But so many dogs are still locked up even when they are 100% reliable adults......

     

    Sorry to off on a tangent.But i hate,hate,hate crates and too many times they are abused including by people on this board.Some think nothing of crating their dogs for 8 or more hours a day .What is wrong with these dogs that they cant be trusted on their own.Somethings gone wrong somewhere if an adult dog cant be trusted at home alone.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Edie, while I may not agree with you on other posts, I have to say I agree with you to a point here.  I do think and have seen crates being abused imo.  Ideally dogs should be well adjusted and comfortable to have free range of house and yard. 

    That said, I am not really in favor of this law.  I think there are already laws in place to protect animals against cruelty.  Those laws already in place are not followed or are too hard to prove.  This law is not going to change that.  After all, some people choose to ignore the laws anyway so what's the point. Wink  What it could do though is cause people with SA dogs and the like some extreme hardship in addition to the hardship they and their dogs already are experiencing. 

    Personally I do not crate my dogs unless in the car travelling or for a few minutes if I need to because small children are around and I can't guarantee my dogs safety.   But I do know there are some people really struggling with some serious separation anxiety and other behavior issues that need to crate their dogs.  I do not make judgement about that as long as the animal receives  food, water, is clean, and gets plenty of exercise and love and attention.  As far as people abusing the crate - well, as previously stated - there are already laws in place with respect to animal cruelty.  I would rather put my efforts into supporting existing laws and other areas of animal rescue.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Wow.  See, this is what I mean exactly.  This law leaves it sufficiently open to interpretation that if Edie lived next door to me in SC, and knew I kept rescues and young dogs in crates for  five hours or more on Sunday when we go to church and lunch, or when I take a dog for formal training, or for flyball practice, or ALL DAY at a sheepdog trial or a flyball tournament - well, Edie, would you make an effort to move the law against me for "cruelty"?

    I crate the young dogs when I can't watch them.  This is often much more than four hours if I'm doing a long series of chores like shearing, grazing a distant pasture, tagging and tatooing sheep, catching ducks on water - or if I get a call that there's geese on a remote training site available for me to work.

    What's the alternative?  Have you ever seen a dog go through a plate glass window?  It's not a pretty sight.  Lots of blood.  Body parts sheared off.  I've had dogs here that would do it to get to the sheep when I'm not around.  Minimally, they'll chew woodwork and eat carpets out of boredom and frustration.  Very bad for the digestion.  I've had dogs climb the bathroom sink, chew through the medicine cabinet doors, and eat medication.  When I was two rooms away.  When they get older, or get more experience working under their belts, they realize that their turn will come and they stop this kind of behavior.  But in the meantime the only way to ameliorate it is to prevent it.  When I'm around they know they aren't missing out and are content to lay quietly.  But when I'm not - well, what would you suggest?  Bars on the windows?  Steel walls and floors?  Consumable woodwork?

    In their crates, they welcome the lack of stimulation and the feeling that there's no point going crazy.  They know nothing is expected of them when they are in a crate, and that it is safe to relax and not worry about anything.

    I have a rescue girl here right now who obessively compulsively paces all day long.  She burns so many calories pacing that she goes down to skin and bones when allowed to do it.  She weighs 25 pounds and eats 4200 calories a day when allowed to stay loose.  And she looks like I never feed her.  To compare, my other working dogs average around 2200 kcals.  My 100 to 150 pound livestock guardian dogs, who spend all night long and half the day patrolling, require around 3200 kcals to stay in shape.  If I keep her crated when I'm not working her, I can reduce her food to around 3500 kcals a day and she actually looks decent.

    I can't help that we've created these very useful dogs that are freaks of nature.  By the same token, I don't think you'd accuse me of evil intent for putting clothing on my Chinese crested hairless dog, because it's pretty obvious in that case that she'd suffer from hypothermia if  I didn't do something "unnatural".  When we start messing with Mother Nature, we can't look to Mother Nature in every case for managing the product of our meddling.  Not every dog can live the life of a "natural dog, with free range of the house and yard."

    This isn't to justify abuse.   Neglect is abuse.  Causing suffering is abuse.  But, before imposing our own standards on a situation arbitrarily, it's best to apply common sense and leave room to actually ask whether a situation we are looking at is in reality causing suffering or neglect.  The physical and mental condition of the dogs should be our guide, not our aesthetic or romantic notions of dog ownership.