Crating/Ex Pens under fire in SC

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    kelliope
    there are already laws in place with respect to animal cruelty. 

     

     

    But unfortunately unless people start admitting that crating their dog for hours a day is abuse then it will never be classed as such.Crating has become the norm,so with our current laws it is not seen as neglect or abuse.Hopefully this will start to make people think before they choose this way of confinement....

     

    Brookcove there has GOT to be another way to deal with your dogs issues other than sticking them in a cage.Surely there has to be another option...

    If i lived next to you or anyone and everytime i looked through the window saw dogs locked in cages,yes it would do my head in,and yes i would do everything in my power to let these dogs have a more natural happy life. 

    The things you described your dogs doing,such as breaking through windows and up bathroom sinks,and chewing out of frustration and boredom..well i just dont know what to make of this,What's wrong with them??? Sorry to be so blunt,but i lived in the country for many years where a lot of our neighbors had working dogs,BC included and i cant say any of them did the things you have outlined above.

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    Moderator speaking,

    All posting to this thread,

    Personal commentary on others dogs is not necessary to this thread. Discuss the legislation...if you wish a personal tete a tete with another member re: their personal dogs or training methods, PM them or start a new thread in an appropriate section.

    Stay on topic, remain civil and use good judgement when posting.

    • Gold Top Dog

    EDIT:  I apologize Gina, our posts crossed in cyberspace.  Because I didn't feel particularly attacked, and don't believe I've responded in a  particularly personal way, I've left my post as is.  I'd have the same questions if I were in Edie's shoes and understand her puzzlement.  I wish you all could see what I start with, and the finished product, and what it takes to get there.  It would give many people pause when dismissing offhand the need or responsible breeding.

    You forget I deal with "problem" dogs here for rehab, and high octane top of the line bred working dogs.  I guarantee you if your neighbors had top trial bred dogs, that they didn't let their youngsters run loose while they were in training.  Not if they valued their livestock, that of their neighbors', not to mention their dogs safety and lives.

    Again, you really aren't in a position to say what will work and what won't, until you have personally dealt with these dogs.  I've worked with them for twelve years.  I'm taking a wild guess, that you have not.  I am a professional trainer.  I don't know your qualifications, but until you've put in a few years rehabbing aggressive/spoiled/OCD herding dogs and making them valuable contributors to society, I don't feel we can speak on an even par about what options constitute responsible management of dogs in a training situation. 

    I would invite you to visit and see whether the dogs here are maladjusted or show signs of neglect or suffering.  I can show you what a trained dog has to do, show you dogs in lower stages of training, and you can see the huge amounts of prey drive that require time and training to channel into the patience that allows my fully dogs to lie around loose for hours with no need to entertain themselves at all, stay off leash anywhere, stop and come when called when in full chase from half a mile away.

    By the same token, I could go around telling everyone that I think that keeping kids' bottoms on a chair, cooped up in a schoolroom away from their parents, for seven to nine hours a day, for 15 of the 18 years of their childhood, is abusive.  Kids should all be able to do as mine do - learning their lessons one-on-one from their parents, done by 1:00 in the afternoon, then free to play on 60 acres with their friends who do likewise (fellow homeschoolers in the neighborhood).  Childhood is for play, not spending the majority of their time in highly structured environments.

    Don't you think forcing a kid to sit in a classroom in beautiful weather like we've got here today, is cruel?  Kids were made to play, not apply their rear ends to hard seats, carry thirty pounds of books and schoolwork on their backs like pack mules, sit on buses and be subjected to the whims of the bus bullies and minimally, hours of aching boredom.

    Most kids adjust very well to this lifestyle, however.  I cannot look at any child and say, "That child is suffering to the point of abuse and there's the signs."  For one thing, I'm not a child psychologist.  I can make allowances for the form that today's society has taken, that requires most education to take place in this type of setting. 

    I still have serious qualms about how unnatural it seems, and have made personal choices and sacrifices so my own kids can take a pass on traditional school.  But I don't think my choices are for everyone and wouldn't dream of trying to impose them on others.  I don't even spend a lot of time worrying about friends who do send their kids to traditional schools.  If I felt that strongly about it, I'd take a degree in educational psychology or law, and take up the banner that many friends have, to work for greater educational opportunities for everyone.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    On the lighter side:

    Abuse would be if I kept this dog:

    In this crate, for ANY length of time!  This dog did this voluntarily, by the way - note that the crate's door was broken - I had ten week old Zhi in it until the door came off - I asked Don to jump into the back of the car thinking he'd climb over the crate into his usual place on the back seat, but he went into the crate instead.

     

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    LOL! I love that picture.
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    But, in regards to this proposed law, WHO gets to decide what is and what isn't abusive? Someone like Edie who thinks that crates are the devils own invention?  Someone like me who finds them a useful tool for keeping my dogs safe?  I have very strong feelings about crates and safety, particularly fire safety, just as she has very strong feelings against them.

    Who decides?

    Again, slippery slope...... 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    glenmar
    Who decides?

     

     

    Thats a hard one.. I was going to say dog behaviorists/trainers et al,but some of them are all for crates and others arent.There should maybe be a blanket rule of say,no more than 2 hours a day.But i can see that would throw up all sorts of issues with injured dogs who need to be confined etc etc

    If crates were suddenly yanked off the market people would have NO choice but to live without them and i am sure most owners and dogs would cope admirably.Raising dogs without ever using a crate is honestly not that hard,not hard at all. 

    Becca i would have thought working/high energy dogs would be the least likely candidates for crates?? But this is probably not the thread to get in to that.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Did anyone read this part of the law?

    "This section does not apply to fowl, accepted animal husbandry practices of farm operations"

    I think it's interesting that there are some posters freaking out about the use of crates, but don't seem concerned that this law would not apply to all animals, only a select few.  I supposed those animals are out of luck because they are not dogs?

    The animals wasting away in their own filth in factory farms are in far worse shape than most pets will ever be in, but hey, they're not cute and fluffy, and are going to die anyway, so it's cool apparently..... 

         

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    sillysally
    but hey, they're not cute and fluffy, and are going to die anyway, so it's cool apparently..... 

     

     

    Apparently not! As no one as far as i can tell as said this. I am equally as appalled by farming practices,chicken cooped up,and there is a reason i dont visit zoo's ever!As i cant stand to see animals in cages Crying  

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    Edie
    Thats a hard one.. I was going to say dog behaviorists/trainers et al,but some of them are all for crates and others arent.There should maybe be a blanket rule of say,no more than 2 hours a day.But i can see that would throw up all sorts of issues with injured dogs who need to be confined etc etc

    Do you seriously feel that crating longer than two hours a day is abuse and grounds for someone having their dogs taken from them? Not asking what you feel for your own personal dogs and life but what you feel about a law that will apply to everyone?

    Edie
    If crates were suddenly yanked off the market people would have NO choice but to live without them and i am sure most owners and dogs would cope admirably.Raising dogs without ever using a crate is honestly not that hard,not hard at all. 

     First off I don't see there being a day when crates are yanked from the market. I suspect if that day ever comes, dog people will have to throw in the towel and admit that AR has won. Secondly - crates would be easy enough for someone to make, if they still wanted to use them. Of course dogs can be raised without crates but it should be the owner's choice what they want for their own personal dogs.

    • Gold Top Dog

    "Edie"] If crates were suddenly yanked off the market people would have NO choice but to live without them and i am sure most owners and dogs would cope admirably.Raising dogs without ever using a crate is honestly not that hard,not hard at all. 

     Ok I admit I am a bit cranky being that its the end of the school year and everybody wants everything done yesterday when they haven't even told me about it yet.....

    However,  this is spoken like someone who has not lived with a high drive, intelligent dog, when the owner has to work to make a living.  I had a very visercal and negative reaction to a comment that implies I could not have owned my dobes for 26+ years nor my belgians at all.......  I tried to live without the crates on the first dobe,,,, big mistake......  I am a crate advocate and my dogs do need to be confined in my house now during the work day.  It is the nature of the beast.  We are however doing just fine.

    • Gold Top Dog

    mrv

    However,  this is spoken like someone who has not lived with a high drive, intelligent dog, when the owner has to work to make a living.  I had a very visercal and negative reaction to a comment that implies I could not have owned my dobes for 26+ years nor my belgians at all.......  I tried to live without the crates on the first dobe,,,, big mistake......  I am a crate advocate and my dogs do need to be confined in my house now during the work day.  It is the nature of the beast.  We are however doing just fine.

    This is also a person who seems willing to take safety risk, espcially when transporting the dog in a car and also transporting in a car, dogs that don't know each other.  I don't crate because I have large kennels that I use for my fosters.  One of fosters loved the crate so I did not deny the dog's pleasure and set up a crate in my living room.  Some dogs do love the crate and I so no reason to impose the dominant will of the owner on the dog by denying something they absolutely love. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Two of my boys routinely head to the bedroom and their crates at night.  They are welcome to stay out here with us, but apparently they prefer the solitude of the crates to having to fight for floor or bed space out here.  The crates aren't latched, but those two boys prefer a quiet place to sleep without any competition for "space".

    And when circumstances merit, I too will crate dogs during the day.  I personally see nothing wrong with giving them a safe place to spend the day and not having to be concerned that someone will get a wild hair about something and it will lead to a fight.  And with the pack mentality of dogs, well, if one is going after another, everyone else could join in.  When I am home, a single word stops any snarkiness.  I'm not going to risk their safety so I can say I don't need to use a crate.  I probably don't, but I can't be certain and it's not a risk I'm willing to take.  Nor do I want someone deciding to go through a plate glass window after wildlife that wanders into the yard, etc, etc, etc.

    So, again, we come back to who decides?  Someone like Edie with her pure hatred of crates?  Or someone like me with a more middle of the road idea of how long is ok?

    And, FWIW, I buy only free range chicken because I won't support the cruelty of the poultry industry. 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    Becca i would have thought working/high energy dogs would be the least likely candidates for crates??

    I actually think this is very relevant to this discussion.  It goes to the heart of the misunderstanding that seems to exist, about what the crate's purpose is in different contexts.

    The use of crates actually developed in the settings where high-energy working dogs were used.  Hunting, military, protection dogs, farming.  The crate offers not restraint, but a place where a dog that is bred to seek out work, demand it, desire it all the time, knows that the "work" it is expected to do in that crate, is simply rest.  Once the dogs realize this, I actually have to teach them not to go in the crate unless I ask them to - because otherwise they fly into the door every time it's opened (and I might be pulling out a water bucket and smack them in mid-air).

    For instance, Bet, the dog I described with the obsessive compulsive disorder, now that I've taken steps to provide an alternative behavior to the pacing behavior, will voluntarily seek out her crate if I ask her to stop pacing.  She's got a plush bolstered bed in there, it's up high in a traffic area where she feels like the queen of the house, and she rests in there with the door open until it's time to work.  I had to show her that option, however, before she started feeling the good of it.

    Those who don't like crates think of them as "cages."  Trainers and dog professionals think of them as training tools, havens from the pressures of work, and a place of safety.   For pet owners it simplifies training steps that once were that cause of many a dog ending up relegated to the pound or on a chain in the backyard - potty training in particular.  I can look and see that the movement of the crate into general use has paralleled the increase in "inside dogs."  I so rarely hear nowadays that my medium sized Border Collies are too big and hairy to be inside dogs.

    To back up a bit, none of us can say for sure what a dog thinks of crates.  All we can go by is the externals.  An arbitrary restriction is problematic because even Edie can think of exceptions she'd be cool with, that would be difficult to define.  I can think of many others through my exposure to working situations. 

    How would a two hour rule apply to some of my dogs that work at airports, where they must be restrained between jobs in a truck crate?  These are tremendously high-energy, prey driven dogs - I would argue that they top the scale in dogdom because of what they can accomplish.  Like a sighthound, they run merely for the joy of the chase, no other reward - they don't even get the control of the stock as a reinforcer as most Border Collies get, and in fact require.  Their birds must escape.  Unlike the sighthound, each task can go on for an hour, always at top speed, in full-out chase mode.  Then they might have to do it again in an hour, and again many more times that day.

    Between jobs, they cannot have access to the runways - human lives depend on their being no room for error, and so physical restriction is necessary in spite of the very exacting training that goes into these dogs.  These dogs can be stopped on a dime in full chase, but if a dog gets out when an aircraft is taking off at 300 earthbound mph, human reflexes aren't fast enough to get a command out in time to avoid disaster.  The task that these dogs have, is preventing birdstrike, when birds get sucked into jet engines and cause accidents.  Dogstrike would have far more tragic consequences.

    People on the East Coast are welcome to tell me where they are, and I can direct you to the nearest air facility that is using a birdstrike prevention dog.  Military bases in particular have open houses periodically and the birdstrike dogs are typically the highlight of the tours.  You can judge for yourself whether these dogs seem unhappy or maladjusted after years of this lifestyle.

      Some dogs do love the crate and I so no reason to impose the dominant will of the owner on the dog by denying something they absolutely love.

    I think this is a really important point.  I think above all, what is best for the dog must be consulted.  Sometimes the dog's [/i]pleasure[/i] can't be satisfied just at first, because we can see our way to ends that will lead to greater contentment and happiness for the dog ultimately - whereas dogs only react to the feelings of the moment.  I think we do our dogs a disservice if we only always think like them, rather than using our human foresight to their advantage.  On the other hand, one mustn't go the opposite extreme and impose our romantic and aesthetic values on the dogs without really considering the dog's true mental and physical condition and welfare. 

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    brookcove
    How would a two hour rule apply to some of my dogs that work at airports,
     

    Which airports exactly do your  dogs work at Becca,i would love to check them out and talk to their owner/trainers :)

    mrv
    However,  this is spoken like someone who has not lived with a high drive, intelligent dog, when the owner has to work to make a living.

    Wrong. I have stated many times on the many crate threads i have taken part in what breeds of dogs i have owned and how none them needed crating.Admittedly crating would have made my life easier in some instances,but my main focus has always been on the dogs happiness,not my convenience.Now please,all you craters,do not take what i just said out of context.

    I'm now not totally sure what we can and can not discuss on this thread,re: the mods warning,but i'm pretty sure it's not a craters V anti-craters thread.And i really do not have the energy to go another round with the pro-craters.I dont like them,i think they are abused by even the most caring and loving owners and this Law is evidence enough that they are being over used and used to much as babysitters,rather than the temporary,short term tools they should be used for.