Crating/Ex Pens under fire in SC

DPU

Nope they would have to come inside my house or get a ladder and peek through my windows.  Ain't gonna happen so what the worry.  I see nothing dire with the laws.  So you are advocating Cody and Bingo stay in their situation?

 So many peoplethink they are obviously not part of the problem that these laws are made for, so they're safe from them. The laws will only get the "bad guys". I would urge anyone thinking that way to spend some time on the Yahoo Pet_Law group, check out MoFed's site and maybe consider that you are perhaps a bit too quick to judge (or who are you to point your finger?). People who voice concern over restrictive laws are not overreacting - they are being realistic. These laws can and will effect normal people who take care of their pets. They will effect rescues and foster homes.

  How quick someone was to jump on the apartment person with multiple dogs. What business is it of your's how much her dogs were crated or how many where there. It sounds like the dogs had a pretty good life - dogs are quite adaptable creatures, more so than humans give them credit for. So you wouldn't do it? So what. There are probably things you do with your dogs that others would disagree with. Do you think she should have her dogs taken from her for it?

 As for Cody and Bingo, their temporary housing doesn't look too bad for me. Our pound houses their dogs in vet cage stacks on wheels, certainly even at two in a kennel Cody and Bingo have more space than that. As for the six GSDs in the RV - that sounds like a fun time to me! Crowded no doubt but what an adventure, something I have always thought about doing myself, although mine aren't all GSDs.

AgileGSD

How quick someone was to jump on the apartment person with multiple dogs. What business is it of your's how much her dogs were crated or how many where there.

Great, so every hoarder just got a green light from you.......

I have been reading your posts......and I am beginning to wonder if you even care about animals well being...........

BTW, the "apartment person " happened to be a person who was running a rescue operation out of her apartment with many dogs in crates.....you really need to put that in perspective.......yikes.....

AgileGSD

 As for Cody and Bingo, their temporary housing doesn't look too bad for me. Our pound houses their dogs in vet cage stacks on wheels, certainly even at two in a kennel Cody and Bingo have more space than that. ...

Wow, this statement makes me feel that the law should elevated to the federal level and be applicable to all states.  Yes, dogs will cope with their lot in life.  And it also looks like the humans also will get use to placing their dogs in bad housing situations.  Makes me wonder what goes on at the breed dog showings to cause such an opposition.  These laws are wake up calls for reform and rather than be selfish and how they may effect the human, extend the sensitivity to dogs.  I can see why there is a need for common sense laws.

I guess, having studied law a bit thinking it was something I'd go into, I always tend to look at these things with regard to the big picture, ie, the precedent it sets: what will be next step based on what this proposition says is OK.  Like a lot of proposed legislation, this one sets a dangerous precedent.  The government (or someone, not you) will have the right to define what is "ok" in your household and punish you if you do not meet their arbitrary standard, period.  So what about children?  Now poorer people that live in a trailer home are not allowed to have kids b/c it's "cruel confinement"?  Only people with acreage can have families and dogs?  Only people with sheep can keep herding breeds and only those who actively hunt can keep a gun dog?  Where does it end?....

There already ARE laws about cruel confinement of dogs/pets.  It varies based on state, county, and city, but in most places, officers have some leeway with regard to what they would consider a dangerous situation or whether an animal is in danger.  I see many times on Animal Cops they are removing animals that have PLENTY of space to roam and do have access to shelter, but the ACO deems the environment too dangerous because there is sharp debris in the yard, or the dog is standing in puddles of ***, etc.  Lots of places have laws about tie-outs.  I think Badrap said it is illegal to leave a dog outside on a tie out at night in Texas.

If you see an animal kept in cruel conditions, call the AC.  If their response is not acceptable to you, contact the applicable politician/congressperson. 

Another thing that irks me is when people are constantly complaining about ACOs and how current laws are not enforced, and then I come to find they aren't even aware of what the laws are and are breaking them.  On another dog board I asked about who licensed their dogs.  Plenty of people responded that they never bothered to find out whether their local government required a license and several others knew it did but refused to do it.  The same thing goes for leash laws.  So many people will just ignore them because for whatever reason they think their dog is exempt, and then they turn around and complain about how an ACO responded when they called about a neighbor or how AC never picked up a loose dog that came into their yard, etc.  I find a lot of times the people pushing AC and condoning more restrictions don't exercise a lot of common sense themselves.

Liesje

I guess, having studied law a bit thinking it was something I'd go into, I always tend to look at these things with regard to the big picture, ie, the precedent it sets: what will be next step based on what this proposition says is OK.  Like a lot of proposed legislation, this one sets a dangerous precedent.  The government (or someone, not you) will have the right to define what is "ok" in your household and punish you if you do not meet their arbitrary standard, period.  So what about children?  Now poorer people that live in a trailer home are not allowed to have kids b/c it's "cruel confinement"?  Only people with acreage can have families and dogs?  Only people with sheep can keep herding breeds and only those who actively hunt can keep a gun dog?  Where does it end?....

There already ARE laws about cruel confinement of dogs/pets.  It varies based on state, county, and city, but in most places, officers have some leeway with regard to what they would consider a dangerous situation or whether an animal is in danger.  I see many times on Animal Cops they are removing animals that have PLENTY of space to roam and do have access to shelter, but the ACO deems the environment too dangerous because there is sharp debris in the yard, or the dog is standing in puddles of ***, etc.  Lots of places have laws about tie-outs.  I think Badrap said it is illegal to leave a dog outside on a tie out at night in Texas.

This is exactly what I was trying to illustrate, thank you!  I will say this again...as laws become more and more restrictive, they remove the ability of AC officers to use their own deductive reasoning and training to determine whether or not a situation qualifies as animal cruelty. 

I will give yet another example from my own personal experience.  When I was about 14, my aunt and uncle's dog was removed from their property and euthanized because he bit a neighbor child.  This child admitted to coming onto my uncle's property, throwing rocks at the dog, and pulling the dog's tail until he finally bit the child.  Does anyone want to disagree with me that this dog was defending himself from what he saw as a threat?  BUT due to that jurisdiction's no tolerance laws on animal bites, the dog was put down.  Dog bites person...dog dies, no matter the extenuating circumstances.  Did the AC officers want to do this?  NO!  The responding officer testified on behalf of saving the dog.  No can do....the law is the law, and this animal lost his life.  Please, tell me how that situation is a case of more restrictive laws being beneficial to the animal.

snownose

BTW, the "apartment person " happened to be a person who was running a rescue operation out of her apartment with many dogs in crates.....you really need to put that in perspective.......yikes.....

I think you have this one a little wrong.  She wasn't running a rescue operation.  She was a foster for an existing rescue.  The way you phrase it makes it sound like you're comparing this person to a hoarder with 50 dogs in a tiny apartment. 

Excerpted from brookcove's original post: "I had a very active rescue volunteer when I first established Carolina Border Collie Rescue.  She lived in an apartment that allowed (wonder of wonders) unlimited pets. She had two dogs of her own and often kept as many as three dogs as fosters at one time.  She also had roommates with dogs, one of which was dog aggressive."

Do you have an inherent objection to crating dogs?  If so, that is fine...it is your opinion and you are entitled to it.  I was just wondering.

This is what I prefer......

and at one point the youngest were being crated

but, being a good dog owner and a person who rescues.....I work up to the point where none of them are crated now.....all are loose all the time.....

snownose

but, being a good dog owner and a person who rescues.....I work up to the point where none of them are crated now.....all are loose all the time.....

Yippeee for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you aware there are other kinds people with other kinds of dogs who are still good owners? You are the reason that such laws are a bad idea ;)

snownose

Great, so every hoarder just got a green light from you.......

I have been reading your posts......and I am beginning to wonder if you even care about animals well being...........

BTW, the "apartment person " happened to be a person who was running a rescue operation out of her apartment with many dogs in crates.....you really need to put that in perspective.......yikes.....

 Are you one of those people that thinks limit laws will prevent animal collectors? I always have to @@ at that one. True animal collectors/hoarders have a mental disorder. Not every person who has animals in bad conditions is a hoarder and regardless, there are already laws against keeping animals in overcrowded, filthy conditions.

 We have no reason at all to believe the apartament person's dogs were living in poor conditions or to impky she is a hoarder. None at all. In fact the only person who has personal experience with the woman, seemed to think the dogs had a pretty good life all in all. She wasn't running a rescue but fostering for a rescue.

 If someone disagrees with you they must not love animals? Or is it my not supporting getting so involved in what everyone else is doing that makes you say that? Or is it my lack of willingness to give up my rights concerning my animals?

AgileGSD

You are the reason that such laws are a bad idea ;)

Aha, why is that.....you making a statement like this makes me wonder if yours stay locked up all the time.....

I thought everyone's goal was to get their dogs to the point of life outside the crate......

AgileGSD

If someone disagrees with you they must not love animals? Or is it my not supporting getting so involved in what everyone else is doing that makes you say that? Or is it my lack of willingness to give up my rights concerning my animals?

There are people who have no business owning animals, period.......and having laws in place kind of helps protect animals....I said kind of, only because these laws are hard to enforce......

snownose

I thought everyone's goal was to get their dogs to the point of life outside the crate......

That is/was my goal.  I say "was" b/c it has been accomplished.  However, both dogs often prefer the crate when I am home.  They go in there to sleep or they take their bones in there.  Sometimes Coke AND Kenya are BOTH in Kenya's crate (a 36";).  The other day we had to get out treats to coax Coke out of Kenya's crate. I took a pic b/c it was so cute!  So now if crating is bad/illegal, I could be punished b/c the dogs go in there?  I do use a crate on occasion, so both dogs maintain being crate trained for when we travel, but the only time I've ever physically forced a dog into a crate was a foster dog that needed to be crated so I could get my dogs from another room and take them out to potty (the foster dog was carrying parasites and was very aggressive towards my dogs).  Now I know (or hope) no one here has a problem with this use of a crate, but I'm not comfortable with a law that says crating/ex-penning is bad/illegal because now someone else who doesn't know me or my dogs gets to make snap judgments on my use of the crate.  Say my neighbor was pissed at me and called AC, they came over and saw my two dogs in one crate and then told me I was cruelly confining them to a single crate.  If I say "they go in on their own", it's just my word against what they saw....

Coke, in Kenya's crate, which is much to small for him (crate door is kept propped open with an old shoe)
 

Coke, going into Kenya's crate....and Kenya is already in there!
 

snownose

Aha, why is that.....you making a statement like this makes me wonder if yours stay locked up all the time.....

I thought everyone's goal was to get their dogs to the point of life outside the crate......

Liesje....I have no problem with the use of a crate......it was very helpful when Rumour had severe SA.......all I am saying is , there are people who have dogs and abuse the use of a crate by keeping the animals confined for a long time or the animal basically lives in a crate.....no access to water or food and having to sit in waste...........I have seen dogs in crates where you would need to have a shoehorn getting the animal in there.....

snownose

Aha, why is that.....you making a statement like this makes me wonder if yours stay locked up all the time.....

I thought everyone's goal was to get their dogs to the point of life outside the crate......

 Why do I think you're the reason such laws are bad? Because you are quick to judge what everyone else does, against your own personal ideal and quick to say they are doing wrong by their dogs if they choose to do things differently than you. Generally people with such attitudes would be quick to turn in anyone that made them mad or that they suspect might be doing soemthing wrong. That you don't know me or anything about me but have already jumped to the comclusion that I must not really love dogs and my dogs must be locked up all the time kind of proves my point.

 How do you speak for everyone? Some people have to crate due to problems with dogs not getting along. Better to play rotatodog than to end up with dead or injured dogs because you insist that everyone has to be loose together because the goal is not to have to use crates. Some dogs are destructive when left alone, despite the owner's best efforts. Leaving them loose is costly to the owner due to repairing/replacing their stuff and dangerous for the dog who might eat something he shouldn't. If one has bitches in season with intact males in the house, crating is often used to keep them apart. I have had friends with dogs that due to injury or illness had to be on strict crate rest for 6 weeks - 6 weeks of being crated or out only on a short leash only. Should AC come and take their dogs away?