What should be the punishment for people involved in dog fighting?

I think that everyone can agree that dog fighting is cruel, what kind of punishment they get.....well I guess we will all have to agree to disagree.

 Yeah, I think that is th ebest way to sum it up. I understand what you are saying that now you are an adult and you can see better,and I do think that applies to a lot of cases.  But remember that there are a lot of kids who spend their whole lives in a bad area and who are brought up wrong and never GET the opportunity to either move around or speak to more people...their entire world, or the world as they know it, says it is ok....Yes, we as humans are suppsoed to think better, farther, but when it comes right down to it, what is imprinted on us psychologically as children STAYS. Not everyone has the chance or the luck to "snap out of it" But I will leave it at that. You make good points and I respect your opinion :)

Pit_Pointer_Aussie, you also make a good arguement about removal from society...but if that worked, we would no longer have the problems we do. We would not have murderers, because all the murderers would be in jail. I do not think removal/jailing is the answer to everything. We cannot KNOW if these people can change unless we at least TRY. If they are a danger to society and must be removed as you say, maybe enroll them in a prison-dog program. Or animal welfare education. Something. I know I sound warm and fuzzy, b ut I just think of a friend of mine who was a pretty heavy drug user. He was in and out of juvenile detention ("jail" in this scenario) multiple times and it never fazed him. Finally, he was forced by to take a series of drug abuse classes. It was this education that turned him around,made him a productive member of society, instead of just throwing him behind bars. He told me that if he had only learned the things he had learned in the class beforehand, he never would have gone as far as he did. If they had kept throwing him in jail, he would never have started to care, and would have ended up dead or remained in jail for the rest of his life. 

BoBo143

If these people all believe (because they are raised this way) that all of these bad behaviors are okay then why do they do it in hiding? 

Interesting viewpoint... 

People, adults, cheat on their taxes often...they know it is ILLEGAL....but ask them via polygraph if they think what they do is "wrong" they'd pass easily saying "no"...because it is NOT wrong...that is their money...being taken from them for the use of a government they do not respect, or believe in.

Ask a pot user, again an adult,....do they think smoking pot is WRONG? Most do not...most think it being ILLEGAL is wrong...and I bet they'd pass a polygraph on that too.

Ask a KKK member, and adult, if they think beating someone, or denying them access to something, because they are black is WRONG and they will say no...and not be lying...ask them if it is ILLEGAL and they'd say yes...

These people aren't mentally disabled...in fact many are quite intelligent, you might even know one or two for all I know. But yet...they do not agree with you, or me, or her over there....that these laws are fablulous wonderful things that all people should abide by. They do not agree that the laws are right, and disobeying them is wrong.

In the extreme fringe these people live on the laws are WRONG...not the acts they commit. Just wanted the throw that out there. They dont' hide from shame or because they feel bad for doing something wrong. They hide to not get caught in the "trap" the laws made for them.

Should the above be considered when punishment's meted out? Nope, other things like priors, likelihood of reoofense, etc are far more important. But, IMO it should be something all people are aware of, *shrug*

Gina, I just wanted to say that those are some excellent examples. I suppose my line of thinking only applies to a very small percentage of offenders....I just want to say that they are there and should not be lumped in with everyone else. Certainly, upbringing etc should not simply by itself give a "lesser" punishment...I just wanted to say that there are a LOT of things to consider whenever anyone is guilty of a very serious crime and out justice system can't just give a blanket punishment to EVERYONE.

whtsthfrequency

Eh I was never one for "an eye for an eye"....that just lowers us as humans, in  my opinion. We have brains and conscience to do things the right way.

If a person is brought up believing that animals mean nothing, and grow up with dogfighting, cockfighting, etc being common....do we punish  them as harshly as someone who is fully awar that this is morally and legally wrong and does it anyway?

Now, I'm not saying oh, let them go free because their momma didn't love them...I am saying that when people have morally incorrect social rules that were impressed in their mind from a young age, they should not be punished as harshly as someone who has had all the opportunity and education in the world and still chooses the wrong path. I think any sort of punishment needs to take the individual into account. Of course, something must  be done about them, because they need to realize that legally, you DO NOT DO THIS in our society.....but think about it.

I'm sorry, but I have a very, VERY hard time believing that those involved in dog fighting do not know it is illegal.  If that were the case, they would not try to hide their crimes, and they do in fact try to hide those crimes.  If you know that something is illegal and still do it, that makes you a criminal.

As far as the "they shouldn't be as harshly punished if Mommy and Daddy didn't teach them better" argument--I think not.  What about someone came from a family that regularly molested its children then when one of those children grows up and molests?  Or someone is not taught that it is bad to beat women as a child and he beats his wife to a bloody pulp?  Or a teenager who grows up in a gang culture, becomes a gang member, then ends up blowing away some 7 year old girl?  

Taking this a bit farther, let's say, God forbid, there was a terrorist attack in the US, and the responsible parties were captured and linked with Al-Qaeda and raised in a country generally not friendly to Americans.  Do we then give them special consideration because they did not realize that it was morally wrong to blow up innocent people (and probably believed they were morally in the right)?

Sorry, but I do not buy that such people should get any kind of special treatment during sentencing.  Unless you are mentally ill, once you are an adult you and only you are responsible for your actions.  The committing of a crime is a choice.

I realize that the above crimes do not quite compare with dog fighting, but what you are suggesting has implications that I frankly find frightening.  

IMHO, if you are caught dog-fighting you get the max amount of jail time allowed, period.  That way if others around said dog fighter simply do not understand that dog fighting is bad, they have a chance to see their friend rot in prison for a while.  Perhaps that will clear up any confusion.    

whtsthfrequency

 That an utter load. You are obviously lucky enough to have been raised where right and wrong was taught to you correctly.

I was brought up in a very racist household, and taught that it was normal and fine to hate Jewish people, black people, etc. I was alwasy taught that, and I grew up believing it.  I was basicallt told society is wrong and the law is wrong. Do you think, as a child, pre-teen, and teenagers, having been fed this crap my whole life, I could have some sort of magical epiphany that it was *not* okay? I did not stop thinking this was UNTIL I finally got punished for things that I did. It was not until AFTERWARDS, when I was educated, that I changed my beliefs.

Am I just as much to blame because of how I think as a person who grew up being taught everyone was gooood and fffffiiine  and then CHOSE to be racist? A person who fully realizes that even though this is wrong, this is NOT the norm, they decide to be hateful anyways? Because they think it is fun? Because they are evil?

So there was no point in your upbringing where you started thinking independently?  There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands (and probably more) people who grew up in deeply religious homes, and that even went to religious schools, that ultimately reject their parents religion and either follow one of their own choosing or none at all.  There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of teenagers who are brought up in strictly "abstinence only" homes and school environments that end up having sex before marriage.  There are many kids who grow up in non-smoking, non-drug using homes who end up smoking or using drugs, and there are plenty of kids who grew in smoking or drug using homes that choose not to go down that path.  There are many kids raised with strict political beliefs that reject them.

My dad was and is an alcoholic.  I did not take alcoholism from that experience, but rather the solid conviction that my children will never have to ask my husband why Mommy is "sleeping" on the living room floor.  I was probably about 12 or 13 when I decided this and there was no "education" involved in that decision other than seeing how my father's life turned out, and realizing some of the horrible things that he did and threatened to do under the influence.  My dad's dad was also an alcoholic, but out of the 5 kids in the family, my aunts and uncle are not.  Why?  Because they made a CHOICE to not go down the path that not only their family's lifestyle (my grandmother used to regularly mix alcohol and prescription meds), but genetic as well.

My husband was raised in a family that was very traditional.  There were 8 kids, mom didn't work outside the home, dad didn't lift a finger inside the home, etc.  Out of the two of us, my husband is really the only one that cooks and we share housekeeping duties.  Oh, and he was raised by a family that is VERY pro-life (to the point of almost being scary), and DH does not buy into their line of thinking (although I think he'd rather die then tell his mother that).

Part of growing up and pulling away from you parents is about finding out who YOU are and how YOU feel about certain things.  You can either make the choice to follow you parent's line of thinking, or find a path of your own--but at some point, yes you have a choice.
 

 Honestly?  It's hard for me to give an unbiased answer to this.  Since working with these South Holland dogs that were confiscated from a dog fighter, and seeing them, it's too hard for me to take into consideration the dog fighter's rights and all the gray areas that apparently would be involved.

When I go and see scars on Streisand's face and her swollen nose, or how Holland barks at anyone who walks by his kennel and then runs to the back in fear whenever the passer-by simply looks at him, or precious Benito who doesn't understand how to walk on leash...no, I cannot think of the dog fighter's rights, because to me, he shouldn't have any.  All of those behaviors with these dogs stemming from the fact that they were locked up in a barn, some were fought and all never received ANY love but have nothing BUT love to give.  It's HORRIBLE. 

On a spiritual level one can only hope dog fighters will rot in hell.  On a human/legal level, they should get the max available.   

So there was no point in your upbringing where you started thinking independently? 

I find that statement a bit insulting. Was there no point in your upbringing when you learned discretion and manners?  To answer your question, No, there was a point where I got caught for doing something a punished accordingly (and not by being thrown in juv det, but being educated and forced to learn about what it was I was doing). People do not just wake up one day and realize that "Oh! They were wrong!"...there needs to be a reason why you start thinking differently, and some people never get that reason. Not everyone is a lucky as you that they can just see at 13 why something is wrong. I sure wasn't, and that doesn't make me stupid or a bad person.

I wonder.....how many times I am going to have to say I am not advocating "lesser" sentences

What I AM advocating (and pay attention here people, so you don't waste ytour time writing more diatribes on how I want to let murderes go because mommy didn't love them) is that during sentencing, we pay attention to WHY this person did this, and not "lessen" their sentence but include in their sentence some kind of education and rehabilitation. As for dog-fighters learning by seeing other dog-fighters rot in prison.....if that was true, I say again, we'd have no murderers, because peopled would see all the murderers rotting in jail and being executed.

I agree with Chewbecca and Sillysally here, and I think it's interesting we all have pits or pit mixes. Perhaps the fact that it's "our" breed, means we can see things differently. It's not just another dog, it could have been one of our rescues.

I'd also like to point out that even though some people don't agree with every law in the country (I don't), it doesn't mean it's OK to just ignore those laws. I don't care what your background, or what you've been through in life, being part of a free society means following the laws - even when they are not fair, even when we get the short end of the stick. It happens to everyone at some point in their life.

Most of these losers have no sense of personal responsibility and that to me is the scariest thing in the world.

We are each responsible for our own actions - good and bad. If someone does something illegal and gets caught, guess what, it's time to grown up and face the music. Learn something from your mistakes and move forward when you are out of jail. It should not fall on society to cut someone slack that didn't follow the rules that vast majority of people follow every day. That is not fair.

ETA: Didn't see the mod post before posting this. Please PM me if I am not inbounds!
 

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

I don't care what your background, or what you've been through in life, being part of a free society means

I do care actually...about their background. Because that is where it starts...and their is where you will truly...stop the problem. Not in front of the judge..but in front of the school room in their elementary schools.

Beefed up laws are great...and honestly that is where PeTA and H$U$ spends most of their time and money....and if you believe them....they also "investigate and infiltrate the secret underbelly of the dog fighting world". My question is...why aren't they in the schools in every grade classroom...with PB's that know silly tricks to amuse the kids, Pb's with scars like the one's they have on their knees...talking about how those dogs got their scars? How just like their knees hurt when they scrape them,....the dogs wounds also hurt?

Get them over their fears, and ideas that dogs are "things" without feelings? There's plenty of dollars in their coffers for that, and since I don't follow thier activities I don't know that they don't. But it's not mentioned in the dog fighting area of their webpages. I of all people...would give H$U$ money for such a program...if it were directed where it needed to be...areas where dog fighting IS...not where it isn't.

I do know they offer a cirriculum for teachers to give on resp pet ownership....but sometimes it takes more than sending paperwork, and dog fighting is a different issue altogether. Sometimes it takes a visit from a dog...an exciting event...to really get into their minds and hearts. Children don't want to grow up with evil things and violence in their lives. I refuse to believe that.

Is there 4-h in Compton? Serious question...

Is there a way or a group out there IN these areas....educating and showing that animals, and specifically, dogs are full of love to give? Because I think the kids would be more than willing to listen...and I think it would go a long way.

 Hi, just wanted to post that the comment "I don't care what your background, or what you've been through in life, being part of a free society means following the laws" should be taken as a whole, not in part.

To clarify, I meant that regardless of who a person is and regardless of what they have been through in life, it still falls on them to follow all the laws of this country.

It should not fall on society to cut someone slack that didn't follow the rules that vast majority of people follow every day. That is not fair

Ok...again....I am just trying to get my point across...I feel like people just aren't listening. Please try and understand ---

I am not advocating "cutting slack" and lesser sentences, I am talking about tailored sentence involved re-education and rehabilitation in addition to the usual punishment - ie "different" punishment.

 And just because I do not own a pit bull does not mean I do not hate dogfighting as much as someone who does....the rescue I got Ginny from highly suspected she was used as a bait dog because of where she was found, certain scarring and her, at the time, crippling dog-fear-aggression. So yes, I am very well educated of and aware of the horrors of the practice.

I think I am alone on this, but I personally don't think that these people can be re-educated or re-habilitated.

I would support trying to re-educate them, but I think the failure rate would be much higher than the success rate, and then what do we do when these people are done with treatment that didn't work, and are back on the streets? We are back at square one.

Yes, we need to educate the young.

Yes, these offenders need to see the error of their ways. Again, I don't think this will happen for 100% of them.

But, I still think there needs to be an element of punishment for breaking laws that are in place to respect life and humane treatment of animals. It's about respecting life enough not to take it or be cruel.

whtsthfrequency

I am not advocating "cutting slack" and lesser sentences, I am talking about tailored sentence involved re-education and rehabilitation in addition to the usual punishment - ie "different" punishment.

I probably misread your previous posts because now I find myself in better agreement with you. As long as the sentence stays the same (length and type), I am not against attempting to educate and rehabilitate. I am not over-optimistic over the results but if it can make a difference even for a few of those individuals, why not try indeed ? However, I would not condone any reduction in the sentence itself because classes were attended or some dog-oriented community work was done.  

I am in a very mellow mood this morning,  but this, this topic makes me burn.  You can not tell me the same person who embraces the "sport" of dog fighting raises healthy whole children.  I have a daughter who has a felony on her record. She met a man who did drugs and was coaxed in to trying them, once she tried crack she was never the same gentle girl we raised. She has many issues now and is facing jail time. My husband and I are supporting and raising her 2 children, it is our honor to be there for them.  However , she can not find work when she is upfront and honest,  She must omit her past to get even a cheesy job that would not support her let alone her 2 kids.  How is this relavent?  Her crime , for the most part hurt only herself and our family.  While we would not bail her out, we did make it possible for her to pay her fines and restitution.  ( by supporting the kids and allowing her to stay with us while trying to keep her head above water.) soooo if hurting herself got such a huge penalty, a life altering one... why on earth should some one who deliberatly hurts animals, makes money from breeding, hosting and betting on fights get a slap on the wrist???  I do believe this is the worst of our culture. We glorify violence in games and movies, tv too from cartoons to series use violence as a method of entertainment.  From the time they are little and bugs bunny smacks elmer fudd with a hammer we are letting them know violence is alright. It's pervasive.  but I dogress,  (intentional pun) ,  If some one uses a gun in the commission of a crime they receive a much harder penalty.  If some one , IMO , causes chaos and blood to flow by encouraging, breeding, hosting or betting on a "sports" act and no I am not speaking of hockey.... they should get the same intense prosecution.

I am very anti drugs, but I'd much rather pay for a dog fighter to be housed for 20 years than some one who sold pot.   Or we could simply allow jail house justice and house them with really violent lifers who happen to love animals, then show a film of what a dog fight really is... nature would then shorten our tax bill.

 Honestly if some one hurt my dogs or my kids , I would be the one facing jail time. 

Bonita of Bwana

Regrets I've had a few...