Pit Bulls break in home

ORIGINAL: Dog_ma

The problem is the image they have, and the type of owner attracted to them right now.  Young males, who admire the "toughness" of pits but have no real idea of the dog they are dealing with, have come to think of pits as the dog of choice. 

Unfortunately I see another trend developing in Pit Bull owners also perpetrated by their 'image'. Our area imposed a breed ban a few years ago. It sparked a huge public debate with the anti-BSL supporters having by far the loudest voice. The editorials and talk radio was inundated with individuals, professionals, spokespersons etc. espousing the virtue of the Pitties and disputing their much maligned reputation. In their passionate attempt to sway public opinion, they left (IMO) a dangerous perception in the public mind that Pit Bulls do not pose ANY threat and testimonial after testimonial suggested that they were completely gentle, cuddle buns incapable of hurting even a baby.

As a result many dog lovers took the plight of the 'misunderstood' Pit Bull to heart and lined up at the shelters to adopt these dogs who had suddenly gone from being vicious man killers to the ideal family pet. So, what I see now is not just the unsavory macho, criminal type owning these dogs, but your average JQP who have unfairly been given the message that owning a Pit is no different than owning a Golden. At least the unsavory owners know exactly what they have. JQP is more likely to find out the hard way.

I just think that too often in defending the breed, people are remiss in pointing out the 'potential' draw backs of owning a Pit Bull. I think we need to make a stronger and louder statement that PB's are NOT for the average dog owner and not worry so much about damaging their reputation. If we can keep PB's out of the hands of well intentioned but ill informed owners then we will help repair the damage done to their reputation. It's a lot easier to convince the public that a violent criminal who has his PB adorned with heavy chains and physically abuses his dog is the one responsible when a tragedy happens, than it is to blame the guy next door whose PB sleeps with their 4 year old. It is those cases that really hurt the reputation of the Pit Bull.

Edited to add: Sillysally's post on Who should own a Pit Bull is a perfect example of the message that needs to be put out.

I do think that pit bulls need to become much more scarce.  I actually would be totally behind required speuter for all breeds, with exceptions for showing, working dogs, service dogs, etc.

Now I know that someone is going to scream "That's not fair.  Why does my very rare Mongolian Hairless Flushing Retriever have to be fixed because there are too many pit bulls?"  My answer?  There are not just too many pit bulls.  There are too many labs, goldens, rots, GSDs, huskys, mutts, etc.  Maybe one of the reasons that dog attacks are going up is that people seem to think that it is their God given right to breed anything with the right plumbing without regards to temperment.  Most people in the lab community recognize that the lab temperment is going downhill due in large part to over and uneduacted-breeding.  The only way you are going to curb issues like this in large populations of dogs is to force those that should not be breeding to not breed.  IMHO, any dog that is going to be bred, regardless if there is a CH in front of its name or not, needs to pass a CGC test.

Also, I think that the shelters need to play a cental role here.  It seems that most shelters have one of two policies regarding pits:  "kill them all and let God sort them out" or "lie about their breed to up the adoption chances."  While I personally do not agree with either one, if I had to chose either/or, I would rather see a perfectly adoptable pit bull PTS than end up in the hands of someone who thinks they are getting a lab mix.  I have gone on pet finder and seen "lab mixes" that look more like pit bulls than Sally does.  If people do not know exactly what they are getting into they should not be getting the dog.

I also have a HUGE problem with rescues that do not euth extremely dog aggressive and/or human aggressive pits.  There are many adoptable pits that are not extremely dog aggressive and not at all human aggressive to be keeping ill-suited dogs around.  There was one poster that stated that the no-kill he volenteered at had a highly dog aggressive pit that wanted to kill certain children, but they were trying to rehab to dog for adoption [sm=smack.gif].  No dog like that (of any breed, but especially pits) should even be considered a canidate for adoption.

A woman on my pit bull board works for a pit rescue.  Her rescue was given a female pit by a no-kill shelter.  This dog would actively try to attack children, and so the pit bull rescuer did what any good pit bull rescuer would do and had her PTS.  The no-kill was FURIOUS.  The no-kill rep actually told the pit bull rescuer "Just because she didn't like kids was no reason to kill her!"  Personally, I am just thankful thet the dog ended up in the hands of someone who was willing to do what had to be done.

I do think that pit bulls need to become much more scarce. I actually would be totally behind required speuter for all breeds, with exceptions for showing, working dogs, service dogs, etc.

 
You better be careful of what you wish for.  There are many breeds in genetic trouble today because of the attitude of only breeding Champions.  It has limited the gene pool way too much and that is one of the reasons you are seeing so many problems in certain breeds.  That is the problem, too much indiscrimate breeds causes problems and too to restrictive breeding also causes problems.
 

ORIGINAL: sillysally
A woman on my pit bull board works for a pit rescue.  Her rescue was given a female pit by a no-kill shelter.  This dog would actively try to attack children, and so the pit bull rescuer did what any good pit bull rescuer would do and had her PTS.  The no-kill was FURIOUS.  The no-kill rep actually told the pit bull rescuer "Just because she didn't like kids was no reason to kill her!"  Personally, I am just thankful thet the dog ended up in the hands of someone who was willing to do what had to be done.

No kidding!   Sometimes well meaning people in rescue do very stupid things. 

ORIGINAL: sillysally

I do think that pit bulls need to become much more scarce.  I actually would be totally behind required speuter for all breeds, with exceptions for showing, working dogs, service dogs, etc.

Now I know that someone is going to scream "That's not fair.  Why does my very rare Mongolian Hairless Flushing Retriever have to be fixed because there are too many pit bulls?"  My answer?  There are not just too many pit bulls.  There are too many labs, goldens, rots, GSDs, huskys, mutts, etc.  Maybe one of the reasons that dog attacks are going up is that people seem to think that it is their God given right to breed anything with the right plumbing without regards to temperment.  Most people in the lab community recognize that the lab temperment is going downhill due in large part to over and uneduacted-breeding.  The only way you are going to curb issues like this in large populations of dogs is to force those that should not be breeding to not breed.  IMHO, any dog that is going to be bred, regardless if there is a CH in front of its name or not, needs to pass a CGC test.

Also, I think that the shelters need to play a cental role here.  It seems that most shelters have one of two policies regarding pits:  "kill them all and let God sort them out" or "lie about their breed to up the adoption chances."  While I personally do not agree with either one, if I had to chose either/or, I would rather see a perfectly adoptable pit bull PTS than end up in the hands of someone who thinks they are getting a lab mix.  I have gone on pet finder and seen "lab mixes" that look more like pit bulls than Sally does.  If people do not know exactly what they are getting into they should not be getting the dog.

I also have a HUGE problem with rescues that do not euth extremely dog aggressive and/or human aggressive pits.  There are many adoptable pits that are not extremely dog aggressive and not at all human aggressive to be keeping ill-suited dogs around.  There was one poster that stated that the no-kill he volenteered at had a highly dog aggressive pit that wanted to kill certain children, but they were trying to rehab to dog for adoption [sm=smack.gif].  No dog like that (of any breed, but especially pits) should even be considered a canidate for adoption.

A woman on my pit bull board works for a pit rescue.  Her rescue was given a female pit by a no-kill shelter.  This dog would actively try to attack children, and so the pit bull rescuer did what any good pit bull rescuer would do and had her PTS.  The no-kill was FURIOUS.  The no-kill rep actually told the pit bull rescuer "Just because she didn't like kids was no reason to kill her!"  Personally, I am just thankful thet the dog ended up in the hands of someone who was willing to do what had to be done.

 
  Years ago almost all shelters were kill shelters. It was not a pretty picture as the animals were in most cases gassed to death in a room filled with dogs, death was slow and was by no means gentle( I had the misfotrune to see this as a child and can still recall the sight of it). Rightly so this caused an outrage, we see the result of that today where the pendulum as swung to the other end. Now any kill shelter (not matter how the dogs are PTS) is frowned upon, as sillysally says many shelters will lie about the breeding of the dog in order to make sure it is adopted. We now have the philosophy that every dog can be saved, even if dog or human aggressive and the shelters overflow. If it is kid aggressive we place a little star next to its name that says "should go to home without kids" or for animal aggression "should be only pet". I think that those of us who truly love dogs and truly must realize that the dream of every dog having a "furever" home is a pipedream.  We must be more selective in the dogs we save, we cannot and should not save them all. That is sad and hard to come to grips with but it is a fact that we will never live in a world where every dog is loved.
 I know of two dogs adopted from shelters, one a GSD mix and the other a Pit Bull mix. It frustrates me to no end that both live their lives tied up in the back yard. They are turned loose once or twice a week, and they are both a danger to any child or even adult for that matter that might run up to them to pet. Animal control can do nothing, they are fed and watered and have access to shade, therefore there is nothing that can be done. Talking to the owners is pointless as they do not get it. They think me mad for walking my dogs daily, and wonder where I find the time. I have tried to explain and encourage them to change their behaviour. I find myself angry at the shelter and wishing that both had been PTS rather than live out their lives in this manner, and I await the day when these two are on the news.
 Also there are a lot of pet owners in the US, we spend billions on our pets and we need to NEVER buy a damn thing from a store that sells puppies. Petstores and shelters are the two places that are dumping unstable dogs on the market daily to people who have no clue and in a lot of cases are just getting a dog on a whim.

IMO,

If owning PBs' was illegal, only criminals would own them.

Bob, it sounds like you have had some bad experiences with PBs', I had a bad experience with a GSD, and I did not like them for a long time. Now I have a GSD mix- looks alot like your dog actually, sweetest dog ever.

There are a lot of irresponsible teenagers and gang bangers with PBs b/c they think it is "badass" to own a mean pittie. Humans created this image, and therefore created this problem through ignorance and improper handling. It used to be "badass" to own a rottie, and at one time, GSDs' were the fad. Pretty much all big dogs have gotten a bad rap at one time or the other.

There is so much media hype surrounding PBs, that every time one attacks, it makes national news. I'm sure there are plenty of other large breed dogs attacking kids, but they don't get as much media attention right now. Any large breed dog can be a dangerous weapon in the hands of the wrong person. Owners are not being held accountable for their actions, that is what needs to change.

Yes, those dogs should be euth, and the owners prosecuted, but the dogs weren't born evil killing machines.

Bob, you do realize that dogs are ANIMALS and are therefore unable to form intent, no?  They rely on the HUMANS (you know, the ones with the well developed brains) to take care of and contain them.  If you own a dog you are responsible for that dog's actions PERIOD.  I do NOT understand why you find this concept so difficult to understand.  It is not complicated.  Do you really think that pit bulls have the ability to form intent? THEY ARE DOGS.  It was a HUMAN that allowed them to get into the mental state that they were in, it was a HUMAN that failed to properly manage dogs that were human aggressive, and it was a HUMAN that failed to properly contain them.

Silly Sally, I love you!

Really, though, you always say things so well, and I so frequently agree with your posts. I am coming into this thread late, but I want to thank you for tirelessly defending the breed, as a convert yourself. You do a great job.

ORIGINAL: Raven778944

IMO,

If owning PBs' was illegal, only criminals would own them.

Bob, it sounds like you have had some bad experiences with PBs', I had a bad experience with a GSD, and I did not like them for a long time. Now I have a GSD mix- looks alot like your dog actually, sweetest dog ever.

There are a lot of irresponsible teenagers and gang bangers with PBs b/c they think it is "badass" to own a mean pittie. Humans created this image, and therefore created this problem through ignorance and improper handling. It used to be "badass" to own a rottie, and at one time, GSDs' were the fad. Pretty much all big dogs have gotten a bad rap at one time or the other.

There is so much media hype surrounding PBs, that every time one attacks, it makes national news. I'm sure there are plenty of other large breed dogs attacking kids, but they don't get as much media attention right now. Any large breed dog can be a dangerous weapon in the hands of the wrong person. Owners are not being held accountable for their actions, that is what needs to change.

Yes, those dogs should be euth, and the owners prosecuted, but the dogs weren't born evil killing machines.

It is stories like this that happen again and again that worry me about this breed.

[linkhttp://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-pitbull23aug23,1,5846869.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california]http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-pitbull23aug23,1,5846869.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california[/link]
http://www.steubencourier.com/news/2007/0826/Front_Page/003.html
Now of course, the excuses will start rolling in:

1. It was the postmans fault, he must have done something wrong
2. Why did he walk near the fence...
3.. It was probably a toy poddle, not a Pit Bull
etc..etc.....

As to bad experiences, I run into PBs while walking my dog  on an  almost  daily basis since they are a popular breed in the area of Atlanta where I live. Most are poorly trained, and very often, I will cross the street or change my route when  I see one( or many times 2 together )  of these dogs dragging their owners around.  Very often the dog(s) wearing a prong collar, and then owner still has no control over the dog.  A teenager with 2 of these dogs is also pretty frightening since there is no way a 14 year old that weighs about 110 pounds is going to control a couple of 90 pound PB's, if they decide to roll into attack mode. By the way, many of these male dogs are unneuttered, which seems to be a status symbol for the owner. Many of these dogs look and act D/A. 

ORIGINAL: RidgebackGermansShep

dgriego, i went back and checked and this is what i was referring to:


Always the same old Mantra after one of the attacks ,  it's the owners fault ,, it's the victims fault,   it's the media, the story sounds fishy, it's unfortunate, it's sad , yada, yada, yada.....  same old, same old..... Anything to deflect the blame of the attack away from  the dogs......



< Message edited by Bobsk8 -- 8/22/2007 10:24:32 AM >

I agree with what you said...I guess what i really meant is that some people think that everyone is just jumping to the pit bull's defense. I don't necessarily think that's true...i just think people are trying to figure out WHY the attack happened. It usually seems that the attack is NOT UNPROVOKED, but i feel like some people try to make it seem like pit bulls run around looking for someone to attack.

It is very important to scrutinize EVERY media story.

There is also truth in the idea that "pit bulls" are frequently misidentified, and that the owner of any dog is ultimately responsible for its behavior, actions, care, socialization, confinement, etc.

ORIGINAL: alieliza

ORIGINAL: RidgebackGermansShep

dgriego, i went back and checked and this is what i was referring to:


Always the same old Mantra after one of the attacks ,  it's the owners fault ,, it's the victims fault,   it's the media, the story sounds fishy, it's unfortunate, it's sad , yada, yada, yada.....  same old, same old..... Anything to deflect the blame of the attack away from  the dogs......



< Message edited by Bobsk8 -- 8/22/2007 10:24:32 AM >

I agree with what you said...I guess what i really meant is that some people think that everyone is just jumping to the pit bull's defense. I don't necessarily think that's true...i just think people are trying to figure out WHY the attack happened. It usually seems that the attack is NOT UNPROVOKED, but i feel like some people try to make it seem like pit bulls run around looking for someone to attack.

It is very important to scrutinize EVERY media story.

There is also truth in the idea that "pit bulls" are frequently misidentified, and that the owner of any dog is ultimately responsible for its behavior, actions, care, socialization, confinement, etc.

\
And it also seems to be the line of defence that is used after every Pit Bull attack is posted on the forum...

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

ORIGINAL: alieliza

ORIGINAL: RidgebackGermansShep

dgriego, i went back and checked and this is what i was referring to:


Always the same old Mantra after one of the attacks ,  it's the owners fault ,, it's the victims fault,   it's the media, the story sounds fishy, it's unfortunate, it's sad , yada, yada, yada.....  same old, same old..... Anything to deflect the blame of the attack away from  the dogs......



< Message edited by Bobsk8 -- 8/22/2007 10:24:32 AM >

I agree with what you said...I guess what i really meant is that some people think that everyone is just jumping to the pit bull's defense. I don't necessarily think that's true...i just think people are trying to figure out WHY the attack happened. It usually seems that the attack is NOT UNPROVOKED, but i feel like some people try to make it seem like pit bulls run around looking for someone to attack.

It is very important to scrutinize EVERY media story.

There is also truth in the idea that "pit bulls" are frequently misidentified, and that the owner of any dog is ultimately responsible for its behavior, actions, care, socialization, confinement, etc.

\
And it also seems to be the line of defence that is used after every Pit Bull attack is posted on the forum...

Aside from the fact that pit bulls are frequently misidentified, I think that everything mentioned (scrutinizing of media stories, a look at the owner of the animal) applies to any story, about any breed of dog. Its not special to pit bulls. Its important with all things considered about our society, that you scrutinize and analyze any story, especially if it comes from the media.

Additionally, if it were your dog, your breed, or anything that you care very much about, I don't doubt that you would feel the same way.

Now of course, the excuses will start rolling in:

1. It was the postmans fault, he must have done something wrong
2. Why did he walk near the fence...
3.. It was probably a toy poddle, not a Pit Bull

I'm not understanding where you are going with this. I'm not making any excuses or questioning the fact that pit bulls do kill people. I'm saying, Rotties kill people, GSDs kill people, but PBs are getting the most media attention at this time simply b/c they have become so popular due to music videos portraying dogfighting as "cool". Ignorant people are training the dogs to be mean, they weren't born mean. Do you disagree with that?

I have met mean pitties, and nice ones too. It sounds like you have a lot of irresponsible owners where you live, and I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I'm just not clear on your opinion. What is your stance on Pit Bulls then? What should be done?

A teenager with 2 of these dogs is also pretty frightening since there is no way a 14 year old that weighs about 110 pounds is going to control a couple of 90 pound PB's,

 
I'd like to point out that a decently bred pit bull will weigh nowhere near 90 pounds. Ever. There is some size range, but 90 pounds? No. Culley is a tad over 1 1/2 and he weighs around 35-40.
 
If you're truley seeing 90 pound "pit bulls," they're most likely big fat hippo American Bullys- overbred monstrosities that have been crossed with everything from Bulldogs to Mastiffs- breeds which *can* be human aggressive, unlike a well bred pit bull.  They are in no way true pit bulls, and I don't understand why they get slapped with that name when they are quite obviously mixes. A 90 pound dog with a 35 inch head and a 2 foot wide chest that can barely waddle along and snarls at people is not a TRUE pit bull. Period. True pit bulls should not be judged and/or lumped in with mutts who happen to bear the same name.
 
Though he was a from a rescue, Culley is a purebred (and IMO, very nice looking) APBT. Notice how small and terrier-esque he looks:

 
Notice how he doesn't fit the stereotype? That's because what most people imagine when they think of a pit bull, and the fat monstrosities thugs like to drag around on logging chains, are NOT. TRUE. PIT BULLS. They are mutts, in the sense that any mixed breed dog is a mutt. Why they are simply called pit bulls, instead of pit/mastiff crosses, or pit/bulldog crosses, or pit/elephant crosses, I have no clue.
 
Sorry if I'm arguing semantics here- but the whole "omg 90 pound pit bull run in terror" thing really bothers me. Pit bulls are not 90 pound hippo dogs- the MIXED BREED DOGS that thugs try to pass off as pit bulls, are.
 

Amen, Ratsicles.  A few months ago I saw man walking one of those enormous dogs.  I asked what kind of dog it was, as I didn't know.  He said, "pitbull."  After he left I said to my companion "That is NOT a pitbull.  What the hell?"  This was before I knew about American Bullies as they are sometimes called.

It makes me want to scream.  Those dogs are NOT APBT!  They are not Amstaff's!  They are mastiff-sized mixed breed dogs.

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8
It is stories like this that happen again and again that worry me about this breed.

[linkhttp://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-pitbull23aug23,1,5846869.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california]http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-pitbull23aug23,1,5846869.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california[/link]
[linkhttp://www.steubencourier.com/news/2007/0826/Front_Page/003.html]http://www.steubencourier.com/news/2007/0826/Front_Page/003.html[/link]
Now of course, the excuses will start rolling in:

[sm=rotfl.gif]

Oh Bob, that is our point.  STORIES like that keep appearing, and no one is writing news stories about all the other dogs biting mail carriers and children. 

On the one hand you poo-poo those of who keep talking about media sensationalism, yet you yourself "know" that pits are so evil and dangerous because of the sensationalistic reporting.  Hook, line, and sinker.