Are you a breeder who really cares?

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

If I am spending my money and time, to chip the dog as the breeder...I want to be on there someplace. Now if I don't chip the pup and you do? Well I think that is your call.

I would have no objections to the breeder being on my dog's microchip as a secondary contact.  I think that is a great idea.  The thing that would make me angry is if a breeder chipped in his or her own name and never told me.  I would prefer to be the primary contact, but I could agree to being a secondary contact if I had a lot of trust in the breeder - provided this is all above board and something that is discussed and in the contract.  No deception, and no lies of omission. 

I know the only people who might get offended would be a thoughtless, unthinking breeder.

 
I think you are confusing umbrage taken with your posting style to be a disagreement with your statement against uncaring breeders. Just because someone didn't like your smack-down style doesn't mean they are an uncaring breeder, or even a breeder, or that they disagree with your point. I think that your login is misleading.

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

My only experience with breeders was when I was searching for GSMD.  The most famous and popular breeder for this breed resides in the state next to mine.  They were asking 2500.00 for their dogs.  In addition I found another breeder in this state with dogs for 1200.00.   The popular breeder is pretty famous amongst these breeds; they had an article in dog fancy and recently had a show regarding the breed on Animal Planet – to give you an idea. 

Anyway, we went to the popular breeder first and were required to bring our son (at the time he was 3), they showed us around asked lots of questions regarding how we would care for the dog, who our vet was, previous dog stories, our finance, etc.  He was hardcore when it came to interviewing us.  He was not happy that we worked full time and kind of let us know that.  He also chipped the dogs in his name, honestly I did not like that and he told us it would remain that way.  After driving four hours to visit with him he told us he would have to get back to us.  So..  we stopped at the other breeder on the way home.   It turned out that the sire of there puppies was a pup from one the more popular breeders.  They too asked some questions etc. but were ready to sell us a dog.  We decided to purchase a puppy and signed a contract as well, requiring us to neuter and return the dog if we could not care for him.  After arriving home with our puppy the next day we got a message telling us we were approved for a puppy for the better breeder if we determined we wanted to move forward.

Well, after 7 months my dog developed some resource guarding issues which at the time seemed crazy to us.  We had a 100 pound dog that growled at us and our child; being inexperience at the time with this behavior we were scarred.  We joined the GSMD forum posted our concerns and were highly recommend to contact our breeder.  Needless to say our breeder had nothing to tell us, except that they never had a dog demonstrate that behavior.  They suggested we contact a behaviorist and have him evaluated.  We did and the problem go worse before better, we tried to contact our breeder a couple time more for some support with no return phone calls, she obviously wanted no part of my problems.

Someone them suggested I contact the popular breeder since one of his pups was the sire to my dog, he is experience and would most likely have lot of suggestion and advice, so I did.  WELL, he was short and to the point!  He sold that puppy to someone who studs him out and he (the popular breeder) was in no was responsible or interested in dealing with my dog and our issues.  If HE owned the dog he would work with us, but he did not!!  I found that appalling, I wasn't asking him to take my dog I was looking for advice and insight on the breed and how to deal with the problem

Anyway, two behaviorist later we got the problem under control and we are so glad no one suggested they would take him back, we might have done that at that time and under the circumstances of being uneducated and unprepared for this advertised family breed who turned out aggressive.   My point being is if that "popular” breeder had any real ethic's I believe he would have tried to help me instead of shutting me down.  After all he is the top breeder and advocate for this breed, right?  Supposedly…..

My experience was that both my breeders (directly and indirectly) were only in it for the money, not the breed/dogs. 

There was a 23 year old girl that started coming to the dog park about 6 months ago with the prettiest Golden Retreiver that I had ever seen. The dog was about 7 months old and was gorgeous.  The first thing a couple of us noticed about the dog , was that it appeared  to have a bad case of hip dysplasia, which seemed evident when you watched the dog walk from behind. It had the strangest gait I had ever seen in a dog.  Being that it was a pup, we also  wondered why the girl didn't play much with the dog, and when asked one day, she told us that the breeder said " It was bad for the dog to run around, because it was still growing, so exercise should be limited to just a few minutes a day".   Now this girl, had borrowed the money to buy this dog, and she said it would take her about a year to pay the dog off, so we figured  that she must have payed a pretty hefty price for the dog. 

Finally, one day, one of the other dog owners went up to her and told her flat out, that she should take the dog to the vet and have it x-rayed, because it looked like the dog had advanced hip dysplasia.  Well the dog's owner, got really upset with that comment, and left the park for the last time.  We understand from a mutual friend, that the girl called the breeder, and the breeder told her that all her dog's walked like that when they were young and they all  grew out of it.

A couple of weeks later, the  girl took her dog to a small park a coule of miles away , that had a small  lake in the center, and let her dog swim in the lake.  The dog swam out to the middle of the lake after a stick , and disappeared under the water. The girl freaked out and walked around the lake calling for the dog and crying for about 30 minutes and she finally left, with the empty leash and collar in her hand.   A vet tech at the park, said that he thought the dog's hip probably gave out and that is why it drowned. It was obvious to anyone that knew the story, that the breeder didn't want to take the dog back or refund the money. The breeder, when told about this story, acted like the girl must have done something wrong to cause the dog to drown, and wouldn't give the girl one dime back as a refund.  This breeder is currently listed in one of the National Dog Magazines for that breed. I am certain that this breeder thinks she is a "responsible breeder"..... I think she is a crook.. 

I would have no objections to the breeder being on my dog's microchip as a secondary contact. I think that is a great idea. The thing that would make me angry is if a breeder chipped in his or her own name and never told me. I would prefer to be the primary contact, but I could agree to being a secondary contact if I had a lot of trust in the breeder - provided this is all above board and something that is discussed and in the contract. No deception, and no lies of omission.

 
I agree with you. I have my dogs microchips scanned at the vet's every time they have a routine physical just to make sure they are working, so I'd know in short order if they had two, and be livid.

My contract states that if ever, in the lifetime of the dog, the buyer is no longer able to keep said dog, for whatever reason, this dog must be returned to me. Failure to do so equals a $3000.00 penalty fee.

I do not think I would agree to such a contract.  I know if anything happened to me that prevented me from taking care of my dog I would rather find a suitable home myself.  If I could not I would give it back to the breeder if I felt they would do the right thing. 

Then, TH, you would not even get one of my fosters.  I don't work with rescues that don't require a return contract.
 
I placed one pup and after two months the new family started griping.....AFTER they broke several of his toes, AND he injured a tooth....never have I had a pup with an abcessed tooth.  But, they had every complaint in the book and made VERY clear that they thought their money should be refunded.  The rescue told me to tell them we would do so after he was vetted, rehabed and rehomed.  They had no intention of returning her money BUT she'd made a very big deal that she was going to SELL the pup if we wouldn't refund her money.  In direct violation of the contract.
 
She attempted to sue the rescue for her lousey couple hundred bucks, but once we provided her attorney with OUR vet bills for the pup, he suddenly had no interest in pursueing the case.
 
Now had this woman offered names of potential owners we would have screened those folks and likely given her the money back, despite our vet costs  But, not only did she demand her money back despite some pretty serious problems with the pup and shots not current, she was fully intending to violate the contract if she didn't get her own way.....like a kid having a tantrum.
 
These contracts exist for the best interest of the pups and a truely responsible breeder will have that clause and not place a pup with someone who refuses to sign it.

Pwca

One of them, I used to volunteer for and got kicked out over the fact that I felt the breeder ought to know (and she wanted her dog back- was a senior, finished champion, who had been placed with a junior, and the junior's parents had gotten rid of him when she went to college)- the group did adopt him out but wouldn't tell the breeder where. 

Breeders should note this and be sure that their contract gives them ownership of the dog in this situation.  In that case the rescue would be guilty of theft and could be taken to court.

TH

sheltiemom

My contract states that if ever, in the lifetime of the dog, the buyer is no longer able to keep said dog, for whatever reason, this dog must be returned to me. Failure to do so equals a $3000.00 penalty fee. 

I do not think I would agree to such a contract. I know if anything happened to me that prevented me from taking care of my dog I would rather find a suitable home myself. If I could not I would give it back to the breeder if I felt they would do the right thing. 

There is an easy way to handle this.  Locate your backup home before the purchase of the pup.  Have the breeder OK that home and write it into the contract.  If the backup home needs to be changed, then discuss that with the breeder.  It is easy enough to write an addendum to the contract.  Most breeders don't want to demand the pup/dog back.  They just want the dog to go to a good home and they want to keep track of the animal.
 
Personally I would ask the breeder to write the contract so that the ownership of the dog belonged to me and my family.  A spouse and children should not have to give up the family pet if the primary owner dies (yes, this has happened.).  In my case, I have three siblings who are experienced dog owners.

I don't know how HomeAgain operates, but this is from an AVID site: 
 
www.avidmicrochip.com/answer.htm#14

Many breeders want to be 'in the loop' when they sell a microchipped puppy or kitten. Our new PETtrac Program for breeders enables you to sell the enrollment at the breeder level and also enables you to have complete control over chip registration. You might want to be an alternate contact, or even a primary contact. Either way, when the pup is in PETtrac, YOU are in the loop 24/7.

Two medium-sized rescue groups here in Dallas have the position that if the dog is in rescue, obviously the breeder is irresponsible. Period.

I presume their own adoption contracts have no such return clause... because they have never made the mistake in judging an adoptor.. or, HECK... what if the adoptor DIES and the family sends the dog to a shelter, unaware of the contract agreement.  I've seen THAT happen more often than not. 

It's an exceedingly negative view to presume that purebred dogs are in shelters because of a bad breeder not caring.  Of the few purebreds who come from reputable breeders who end up in shelter (because far more trace their origins to pet stores and BYB), the reality is the breeers DON'T get contacted for some of the following reasons:
1 - the one mentioned above [:@]
2 - the dog shows up as a stray with no tat or chip to reference back to the breeder
3 - the contact info references the owner, and NOT the breeder, and if it's an owner surrendering... well, no where else to go with that.
4 - the owner denies/loses the breeder contract - because, really, they ARE breaking a contract...

Also, keep in mind that people FORGET.  The breeder was "Sue something from Springfield, MA"...without the aid of Internet websites for these breeders, how on earth are you supposed to find the contact information unless it's provided by the owner... who is quizzed if they contacted the breeder... and from my experience in both breed-specific and all-breed shelters, the owners either lie, forget or don't provide the full picture to the breeder. 

Bottom line - keep purebreds out of shelters by
A - microchipping (or tattooing) and registering to the breeder from the beginning
B - maintaining good contracts whereby breeders have the right to retrieve their dogs from ANY shelter or person
C - EDUCATION of OWNERS... something went wrong that prevented them from returning the dog to the breeder.... maybe a training issue?  Maybe a financial issue?  Maybe an ego issue (ie, they failed the dog, but can't swallow the words they wrote on their own applications describing themselves as responsible, dedicated, loving dog owners)

IMO, the OWNERS are always to blame.  Letting the dog run loose, not securing the yard from theives, failing to train and therefore raising a hellion, giving up on their commitment to keep the dog, etc, etc.  The only possible exclusion to the owner being to blame (from my perspective) is if they died suddenly and there was no will and their records of the breeder contract are gone/mismanaged by family.

I do not think I would agree to such a contract. I know if anything happened to me that prevented me from taking care of my dog I would rather find a suitable home myself. If I could not I would give it back to the breeder if I felt they would do the right thing.

 
As janet said : Most breeders don't really WANT to take on the dog and are more than willing to work to find the best solution in the interest of the dog... whether it be family, friends, aquaintances, etc.
 
As long as the breeders conditions are met on how they want the dog to be treated ; inside, outside, not left alone for more than X amount of hours, kids/no kids... WHATEVER the conditions the breeder asked of the initial buyer, most breeders I know of are willing to work with the family members in rehoming a dog.
 
What I don't want is to find out that the family couldn't/didn't try to find an alternative to dumping the dog at the SPCA, which is why I've included the return/penalty clause in my contract.
 
 

ORIGINAL: sheltiemom

As janet said : Most breeders don't really WANT to take on the dog and are more than willing to work to find the best solution in the interest of the dog... whether it be family, friends, aquaintances, etc.

As long as the breeders conditions are met on how they want the dog to be treated ; inside, outside, not left alone for more than X amount of hours, kids/no kids... WHATEVER the conditions the breeder asked of the initial buyer, most breeders I know of are willing to work with the family members in rehoming a dog.

What I don't want is to find out that the family couldn't/didn't try to find an alternative to dumping the dog at the SPCA, which is why I've included the return/penalty clause in my contract.

I understand that these policies are an attempt to protect the dog and that they are well intentioned.  The fact remains that I am very attached to my dog.  I know that the breeder or shelter does not want to take the dog away but I simply would not risk it.  If I am raising and taking care of the dog then I will be the one who decideds what is best for it.  I would not trust someone wles with this responsibility.  I guess that is really the same thing you are saying.  You do not trust the person buying the dog I do not trust the business or organization selling it.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Then, TH, you would not even get one of my fosters.  I don't work with rescues that don't require a return contract.

I placed one pup and after two months the new family started griping.....AFTER they broke several of his toes, AND he injured a tooth....never have I had a pup with an abcessed tooth.  But, they had every complaint in the book and made VERY clear that they thought their money should be refunded.  The rescue told me to tell them we would do so after he was vetted, rehabed and rehomed.  They had no intention of returning her money BUT she'd made a very big deal that she was going to SELL the pup if we wouldn't refund her money.  In direct violation of the contract.

She attempted to sue the rescue for her lousey couple hundred bucks, but once we provided her attorney with OUR vet bills for the pup, he suddenly had no interest in pursueing the case.

Now had this woman offered names of potential owners we would have screened those folks and likely given her the money back, despite our vet costs  But, not only did she demand her money back despite some pretty serious problems with the pup and shots not current, she was fully intending to violate the contract if she didn't get her own way.....like a kid having a tantrum.

These contracts exist for the best interest of the pups and a truely responsible breeder will have that clause and not place a pup with someone who refuses to sign it.

The story you presented is very sad and I understand your concern.  I have also seen shelters that are very irresponsible and abusive.  I know this policy is meant to be good but I do not know who will be running the shelter if something were to happen down the road.  I could say a responsible owner would not buy a pup with this clause for the best interest of the dog as well.  Individual owners are not the only ones who abuse dogs.

In this case your shelter would be depriving a dog of a good home.  I just do not think I could give someone or a business entity the power to take my dog.  I realize it is a small risk and that the shelter is not out to get the dog back.  Still I am not sure I would agree to those terms.  If something happens to me and I can not care for my dog then I will be the one to find the best home for him, not whoever happens to be running a shelter.

Still I am not sure I would agree to those terms. If something happens to me and I can not care for my dog then I will be the one to find the best home for him, not whoever happens to be running a shelter.

What if there wasn't time?  I work at a shelter and am also on a listserv for a local rescue.  Lots of dogs are posted that come to the rescue or shelter b/c someone died and didn't leave any indication of who was to care for the dogs.  A surprising amount, really.  If you want to chose a backup home, I support your right, but you need to make that choice now, not wait until something happens when you may or may not even have that opportunity.  I do not trust my parents with my dog, not that they wouldn't love her, but they don't have the time and energy to do the things that she likes.  I will sign a contract that she will go back to the foster home if it doesn't work out or if something happens to me.  I'm sure if you were really against such a contract, you could make arrangements before getting the dog and include that as part of the agreement between you and the breeder.

I'm going from memory here, but I think the way it works with the Home Again chips is that who ever originally purchased the chip (in my case the Vet, but it could be a breeder), are permanently identified with the chip(s) by lot numbers.  So, with the right research, the breeder could be located if one of their dogs is an owner turn in or the owner couldn't be found or didn't respond.  The breeder (or Vet) in turn would have records of which chip went to which dog. This is separate from the primary and secondary contact information listed with the registering agency.  I think it's a great idea for breeders to chip the dogs prior to sale, but I wouldn't want for the breeder to insist on being the primary contact, or even secondary for that matter.  And here's why. Owner turn-ins of a dog from a reputable breeder happens, but it is rare.  The much more likely scenario is that the dog gets lost.  If one of my dogs get loose and someone scans them, I want to be called immediately.  And I've carefully selected my secondary contact as someone who I can always get a hold of and is willing to drop everything to run get my dog if they were the ones to get the call. I would be out searching desperately, putting up flyers, making sure the phones for primary and secondary were manned, calling every shelter/Vet in town.  I'm likely very close to where my dog is at, while the breeder could be in another town, another state, on vacation - out of reach for a few days. What if I physically locate my dog at animal control but because the chip is "owned" by someone else, I can't prove ownership of the dog?  What if the breeder can't be reached within the short time limit before the dog goes up for adoption? Also, for the breeder, identification by lot numbers would be a much more efficient way to keep their contact information up to date.  Changing the primary or secondary contact info is done individually for each chip.  It would require going online and changing the info for every puppy you've ever chipped, then waiting 2-3 weeks for a confirmation letter, and following up if you didn't get the confirmation letter. I understand and respect breeders always wanting to ensure their dogs come back to them if they don't stay with the original owner.  But as an owner, the chip is "my last line of defense" for getting my dog safely home as quickly as possible.  I would be a complete mess if I knew the phone call was going to the breeder and I couldn't get in touch with them to let them know the dog was missing.