Are you a breeder who really cares?

ORIGINAL: polarexpress
Breeders who care also check on the home BEFORE they agree to sell a up. I filled out an application, met with her a few times and gave her references.

I totally agree. We did a lot of back and forth by phone and e-mail, then met in person, then went to breed club meetings, then met her dogs, then and only then did we talk about buying a puppy.

Luna could be a breeding quality pup (she's only 5 months so we don't know 100% how she'll turn out conformation wise or in the agility or herding areas), and was sold to us on a show/breeding contract that is beyond detailed (including requirements for any puppies Luna could potentially have).

I think there are many breeders who care, and they take every step they can to ensure the well being of the dogs they breed and any dogs that could result from one of their breedings.

ETA: We are still in touch all the time as Luna grows, random stuff like "she's getting her big girl teeth [] and what should I do with her ears now that she is teething and holding them in a rose-pricked position.

I have no problems with breeders chipping their pups and registering themselves.  As a dog owner, I would always ask a breeder whether or not the pup is chipped.  I would expect the breeder to say yes and give me the info so I could call in or pay to change the registration.  If people don't think to even ask or make sure the pup is chipped, they're probably the types of owners that necessitate the chips and it's a good thing at least the breeder has registered their info.  I would be peeved if a breeder lied and said the pup was not chipped if it was chipped and registered to them.

I once got a kitten from a PALS course (they use overflow animals from the shelter, gives them a second chance at adoption).  I did not intend to keep this kitten, but filled out all the paperwork in my name.  My roommate insisted she wanted the kitten, but I made her prove to me that she knew how to care for it.  It was a year and a half before I turned over his papers to her and he was chipped in her name.  You can never be too careful, even with your best friends.

ORIGINAL: mrv

pretty broad brush with an unattractive color to be slinging around a place where you have not spent much time.  Reframing such a post to indicate a concern about folks not adequately screening puppy owners might get you point across in a more inviting manner.

Just because I haven't been around this forum much should have nothing to do with what I wrote.  I know the only people who might get offended would be a thoughtless, unthinking breeder.  Otherwise, as noted there are clearly a great number of people here who are thoughtful breeders.  I just felt the need to share my concern, and if it sounded harsh to the responsible breeders out there I am sorry.  Nontheless my own personal experience has shown that they are out there, and they need to be held accountable, even anonymously on a dog forum.  Selfish, true but it makes me feel a little better.

I am glad I made this post too because it brought on a great discussion that I have learned much from, and I hope others will too.  Thanks all for the great posts, and keep 'em coming!

i know i learned a good deal from this discussion and i'm glad you created it too!
the thing about uncaring breeders is you'll rarely find them in a forum like this.... perhaps they lurk.. might ask the odd question but are careful NOT to mention that they breed for money. the problem with that is they already know that what they're doing is wrong. calling them like that really wont have much effect. grabbing them by the ear and dragging them into the room where they put puppies to sleep MIGHT change their ways... but making comments wont have too much effect. if it did, then we wouldnt have a problem.
but it doesnt mean you shouldnt try. again.... what i learned here about chipping the puppies is great. i never would have thought of that on my own. i know some breeders probably already do that... but i always figured that was up to the future owner/adopter.

ORIGINAL: polarexpress

ORIGINAL: Pit_Pointer_Aussie

I have no problem with breeders chipping their dogs, in fact I think it's a very good idea, but I think the owners should be told and their info needs to go into the system with the breeders.

"Sharing" a chip is one thing---having a pup chipped and not knowing about it?[:@][:@][:@] I would be ballistic.

If my pup is missing, then I am going insane looking for him. Meanwhile, the shelter has left a message for the breeder who could be anywhere (vacation? show?) and as far as the shelter is concerned they have located the owner. So when I call looking for my dog they tell me he's not there. [] 

Never mind the issues that could arise when I decide to put a chip in and they scan him and find an existing chip!  What about if he's lost and there are two chips with competing info?

If the breeder puts a chip in and I am on there as the primary contact, that's fine. (I think I put my dog's breeder on his chip as #3 contact) but having the breeder as the only contact and without my knowledge is a big no for me.

Ditto.  I'd be extremely angry about having my dog chipped by a breeder and not told about it. 

Also, my husband and I  frequently pick up wandering dogs.  If there is no tag, and no one in the direct neighborhood knows the dog, we will take the dog to be scanned.  If the person that comes up is local, we call and the dog goes home.  If the person listed was out of state?  Honestly, the dog would probably go to the shelter.  I don't have the ability to foster strange dogs in my house.  We'd still call the number, but in the meantime puppy dog is now sitting in a cage at the shelter instead of back at home. 

Sure, they end up being adopted usually faster than other dogs, but don't breeders realize that someone's willingness to pay top dollar for a dog doesn't mean a thing?

 
That is an interesting misconception.  Most breeders don't sell their purebreds at top dollar.  If you want to buy top dollar purebreds that are not destined for show- go to your local pet store.  That's where you get over priced, undersocialized dogs from "heaven only knows."
 
Breeders offer dogs at fairly competitive pricing, in my experience, even then it rarely covers the cost of the breeding, whelping, health care and other sundry items.
 

To those of you who breed and sell dogs, do you ever check up on the owner after you sell the dog to see how the dog is doing? 

 
The same could be asked of those that adopt the puppies from those breeders.  Do you keep in touch with the breeders?  It's a sword that cuts both ways.
 

Once you breed a dog, you are the human parent of that animal - selling them to a stranger you will never see or talk to again is downright careless, thoughtless and greedy.  If you do this, I hope you have enough dog-humanity to feel guilty as s--t about those innocent creatures you handed over to someone who could be an animal abuser or neglecter.  You should be ashamed of yourself. 

 
I think your anger here is somewhat misguided.  This is a board full of animal rescuers, volunteers, trainers and enthusiasts, not a breeder board.  It's admirable that you would want to voice your objection to irresponsible breeders.  Most of us feel exactly the same way.

Here's how I think the chip thing would work for an owner surrender at the shelter I'm most familiar with (though I'm sure not all shelters operate this way). A dog that's clearly purebred comes in as an owner surrender. A file is opened on the dog and the owner is asked lots of things about health, temperament, reason for surrender, and I believe they ask whether or not the dog is chipped (all dogs going out the door are chipped so in the case of a dog who's already chipped, they can just change the registration). If the owner said yes, they'd have to scan in order to change the registration and hopefully would see any secondary information that is clearly for the breeder. It's not outside the realm of possibility for that to happen. The shelter I used to volunteer with his really high volume so just for self-preservation reasons they tend to be really good about calling breed rescues to pull obvious purebred dogs, so some may find there way back to breeders that way. I snapped Marlowe up so fast from there, they never even had time to investigate that option though. I saw him across a crowded room and it was love at first sight.

I would always ask a breeder whether or not the pup is chipped. I would expect the breeder to say yes and give me the info so I could call in or pay to change the registration. If people don't think to even ask or make sure the pup is chipped, they're probably the types of owners that necessitate the chips and it's a good thing at least the breeder has registered their info. I would be peeved if a breeder lied and said the pup was not chipped if it was chipped and registered to them.

 
I actually assumed that they wouldn't chip "my" dog and leave it to me to do.  The first visit to the Vet he was chipped, my idea not theirs.  But they could put it in the contract too.  I have no problem with them chipping and then allowing me to be primary and them secondary if they insist - good idea actually.  I just want to know that if my dog gets lost or stolen that I AM the person to contact not my breeder.  

This is a somewhat separate problem but I have a MAJOR issue with rescues (Gina, this is local but doesn't involve your breed) who won't contact the breeder even if the dog comes in with papers.

Two medium-sized rescue groups here in Dallas have the position that if the dog is in rescue, obviously the breeder is irresponsible. Period. One of them, I used to volunteer for and got kicked out over the fact that I felt the breeder ought to know (and she wanted her dog back- was a senior, finished champion, who had been placed with a junior, and the junior's parents had gotten rid of him when she went to college)- the group did adopt him out but wouldn't tell the breeder where.

This isn't right- even if dogs came in microchipped, the breeder wouldn't find out unless they monitored the rescue site really closely- and even then, they might not.

Would breeders be offended if they are not left as the primary or secondary contact on the chip?  On my cats' chips, I actually list my parents as the primary contact, because we've moved so much that our phone numbers and address changes all the time.  My parents won't ever move, they are home more often, and there phone number will never change.  I register myself as the primary using their address and phone number, and then register DH as secondary with his/our cell number.

If I am spending my money and time, to chip the dog as the breeder...I want to be on there someplace. Now if I don't chip the pup and you do? Well I think that is your call.
 
I know chips become less useful as to breeder's being on there as distance plays in. It's more important in the case of STRAYS to get the dog pulled and to safety ASAP and local people can do that...the breeder 5 states distant...cannot. Now if the owner dumps the dog because they're moving and they don't want the hassle of contacting me or shipping the dog? Then being listed could be the dogs last chance...
 
Tough call!

I love a good debate  []
IMHO there are as many irresponsible breeders as there are irresponsible owners and irresponsible rescues.  There are always going to be problems and that is just a fact of life.
There are a number of things I tell people to do when going to a breeder.  Check the contract, check health clearances, check references, check their vet, check the kennels, check the breed clubs and check with the better business bureau if there is one.  Word of mouth is the best advertisement a breeder can get.
I totally agree that a breeder should know where every single dog in their line is.  And I think that they should be taking back their dogs when need be.  And some do but some don't.
And rescues, well, some of them are hard core, others willing to only look at whats best for the animal and others................................... well sometimes they are downright dishonest.
Until the majority of humans stop looking at animals as property we will always have homeless/unwanted animals.

Oh, and because I forgot to say it before:

Mal is chipped to me- I had it done myself. I am primary, my training partner is secondary (I don't trust my parents, in the event something happened to me, to remember to deal with Mal), and his breeder is tertiary- she's home less than my training partner and has a 3 year old grandson who likes to answer the phone himself...

Things are different for breeders in Canada.
 
ANY "purebred" dog sold from a Canadian Kennel Club breeder MUST be identified by either a tattoo or micro-chip BEFORE leaving the breeders premises.  No 'if's, 'ands' or 'buts'.
 
Both the tattoo code and the chip # are registered to the breeder, after which, when the pup is sold, the 'buyer' becomes the 2nd contact.
 
Unfortunately, not ALL rescues will scan or take the time or even care to verify the tattoo or chip #.
 
My contract states that if ever, in the lifetime of the dog, the buyer is no longer able to keep said dog, for whatever reason, this dog must be returned to me.  Failure to do so equals a $3000.00 penalty fee.
 
I have only had 1 dog end up in a rescue... they didn't scan, check for a tattoo... the BUYER from the rescue association  had the dog scanned for a chip while at their vets.
 
This buyer then contacted the CKC ( Canadian Kennel Club) who in turn, re-directed them to me.  I was able to give them all the missing info on their 1 year old dog.
 
And yes, the original purchaser is been taken to court... it has been 1.5 years and we have not yet stepped in front of a judge... but it WILL happen !
 
So... even with a solid contract, signed contract, some dogs do fall through the cracks... if it hadn't been for the rescue buyer contacting me, I would never have known that one of my pups had been relinquished to rescue.
 
And yes, I do try to keep in touch with my pup buyers on a regular basis ( once every 6 months to a year), but some move, or divorce and do not thinking to keep me update with their info. 
 
Others, send updates of their dogs every month !!!
 
 

Sorry... should have said :
"I have only had 1 dog end up in a rescue..."  that I am aware of.