Pill Thread Got Me Thinking....

janet_rose

Aina

I know a person who adopted a "defective" fetus.  He is the sweetest boy I know. 

Sounds like spina bifida.  I am glad he is doing fairly well.

What about a fetus with Tay-Sachs disease?  It is a progressive, neurological condition that begins during infancy. Deterioration of the central nervous system becomes apparent at about six months of age. Symptoms include loss of coordination, blindness, deafness, seizures, and severe mental retardation. The average life expectancy is about three to five years.

These babies don't have the opportunity to be "sweet" children.  The parents grieve and watch their child suffer from 6 months until the child finally dies.  Many marriages can't survive the stress.

Can you really tell me that you would fault parents that abort a Tay-Sachs fetus? 

Tay-sachs is what I had on my mind as well.  The things I have in mind when possible aborting a fetus are not your every day mental or physical disabilities.  We're talking diseases where the child WILL die and not only die, but will live every second of his or her short life in pain.

Or something like anacephali where the baby has no brain.  Now I'm a Christian and believe in God and all that, but no brain?!  I know someone who's baby was diagnosed with this.  Not only was the baby not going to live more than 24 hours or so but this particular pregnancy put the mother at a very high risk.  Now if that were me and I already had children, I don't know that I could carry a brainless baby full term knowing that I could die myself and leave my healthy children motherless.

But since I don't feel it's appropriate to be deciding "in this case it's OK, in this case it's not", I support choice.  I personally cannot know of all the possible scenarios and I can't know how someone else feels about each scenario so I find the only appropriate solution is to let that person decide for herself.
 

 I think, like with almost anything else, there are extreme cases that need to be dealt with on a case by case basis. 

However, arguing from extremes is a very week argument.  Anything can be argued from extremes.  Trust me, I have done it.  Not very many people are going to argue with them because most people have *some* common sense, not much, but some. 

In general, abortion should be the last option, not the first, which it seems to be right now.  It is the routine abortion where girl gets pregnant and doesn't want to deal with it that I am against.  Mostly because she will deal with it, but instead of having the feeling of "My baby has a good home now" it will be "I killed my baby"

Adoption should be the first option people think about.  WTH with someone not even mentioning adoption but showing graphic pictures of an abortion?  They already know the problem, they need a solution.  IMO, adoption is the best option for a teenage girl who gets pregnant.  I guess more than anything else I am pro-adoption.

I am so glad there are public figures like Angelina Jolie and others who are bringing adoption into the public light.

"There are plenty of unwanted children in the world.  Why add more? "

My point in the OT was that it may not be an 'unwanted' child.  The father may want it.  I think I read once that some states do require the father to sign over his rights before a child can be given up for adoption.  In some cases I think that is good, but then in others (rape, incest, father just wanting to be a jerk to the mother and wanting nothing to do with the kid) it still doesn't work all that well.

 Since this has become a discussion on abortion I guess I'll throw in my thoughts.

I don't think in general that abortion should happen.  How ever there are extremes where maybe it should, like others have mentioned, high risk to mother, rape, defects (like the babies w/ no brains) and some others.  I just don't think someone who wants to abort becuase "oops, made a mistake" (or similar) should be getting one, I'd rather they go the route of adoption if they don't want/can't keep the child. 

So I guess I don't think abortion should be illegal, just more restrictive maybe.

Aina

I think, like with almost anything else, there are extreme cases that need to be dealt with on a case by case basis. 

In general, abortion should be the last option, not the first, which it seems to be right now.  It is the routine abortion where girl gets pregnant and doesn't want to deal with it that I am against.

I agree, but it cannot be dealt with on a case by case basis if it's not an option in the first place.  If the problem is too many people getting abortions as an easy fix, then we need more campaigns about sex ed and birth control methods, not restricting abortions. 

Restrictions are just too dangerous, IMO.  Sure the extreme cases are rare, but they happen.  Like the lady who was raped and the pharmacist would not give her a morning after pill.  Restrictions just make the legit extreme cases even more difficult to deal with, put people who have been traumatized through additional trauma, add more stigma....

TheDogHouseBCMPD

I just don't think someone who wants to abort becuase "oops, made a mistake" (or similar) should be getting one, I'd rather they go the route of adoption if they don't want/can't keep the child. 

So I guess I don't think abortion should be illegal, just more restrictive maybe.

The resources needed to determine if a woman is just using an early abortion for birth control simply don't exist.  We can't give all these women lie detector tests and the tests aren't even accurate enough to be used in a court of law.

So how are these rules that you want to force on other people going to be enforced?  Would there be some kind of court process? 

What kind of "proof" would a rape victim need? A conviction?  Who decides if a defect is "bad enough"?  Who decides if a pregnant woman is "sick enough"?

How long would it take to get approval?  (Ever try to get a court date?)  Remember that time is of the essense.  The later the abortion the higher the complication rate. 

Roe vs Wade gives doctors a simple set of rules that cover the vast majority of abortions.  The later term abortions do have more restrictions.

One of the reasons that Roe vs Wade has stood for 28 years is that no one has been able to come up with a better set of rules.  Any set of rules can't significantly add a delay in getting an abortion or start pushing women (and girls) to back alley abortions. 

Very valid points and I don't have answers for most of them.

janet_rose

One of the reasons that Roe vs Wade has stood for 28 years is that no one has been able to come up with a better set of rules.

Yea, that's pretty much what I'm getting from this thread.  There are things that all of us might like to see be done differently, but not a very realistic way of making that happen.  (i.e. no 'better' rules)

Lies, you also made some very good points about restrictions possibly making the extreme cases even more tramatic.

Aina

IMO, adoption is the best option for a teenage girl who gets pregnant. 

The best option for children who are not full grown and who have a higher complication rate is to carry a pregnancy?  With all due respect I completely disagree.

Like it or not most teenagers who give birth are keeping their babies - not putting them up for adoption.  That is unlikely to change unless we go back to the era where there was a social stigma against single parenthood.

The only practical way to reduce teenage abortion is better sex education and easier access to contraceptives (to reduce the pregnancy rate).

The following quotes are from an Australian site, but I don't think the U.S. is any different.

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/BHCV2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Teenage_pregnancy?open

Complications of teenage pregnancy
Teenage women generally encounter more problems during pregnancy and childbirth than older women. Reasons for the higher complication rate include:

• Physical immaturity
• Lack of health care knowledge
• Cigarette smoking
• Alcohol consumption and the use of other social drugs
• Poor diet
• Inadequate antenatal care
• High levels of emotional distress.

Social problems faced by teenage mothers
... Many teenagers believe looking after a baby will be the happiest time of their lives. This is true for some, but keeping the child may have unforeseen consequences, such as:

• Reduced education and employment opportunities
• Alienation from family and friends
• Poverty
• Increased risk of mental health issues
• Increased risk of child abuse and neglect
• The child may not receive adequate guidance due to parental life inexperience
• The child is more likely to become a teenage parent themselves.

TheDogHouseBCMPD

There are things that all of us might like to see be done differently, but not a very realistic way of making that happen. 

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just "beam" a fetus from one womb to another?  That way women who have trouble getting pregnant could "adopt" the unwanted fetuses. 

On a more practical note, how do we convert the segment of the "pro-life" community who are against sex education and/or contraceptives?

Those are the only two realistic ways of reducing the abortion rate.  That is after all a common goal of both the pro-choice and the "pro-life" communities. 

janet_rose

jenn52

Defective fetuses - I don't think aborting every fetus with a problem is right.  Why not let them be born then die on their own? 

Oh, come on!!  It is hard enough on a woman who wants a baby to learn that it is going to die soon after birth.  Does she really need to wait months for that to happen?  How would you feel for instance if you were told your baby had no brain? 

I'm almost in tears reading this... my boss's sister has three weeks to go to her due date and has been told that the baby has just died.  She will have to carry it to term and deliver it.  Dead.

Please, folks, all of you... have a think what you are saying.... what you are suggesting women be expected to do. 

janet_rose

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just "beam" a fetus from one womb to another?  That way women who have trouble getting pregnant could "adopt" the unwanted fetuses. 

LOL way to think outside the box Janet :o)  But seriously, that's kind of a neat thought.

janet_rose

On a more practical note, how do we convert the segment of the "pro-life" community who are against sex education and/or contraceptives?

See, now that to me makes no sense.  My personal belief was that I needed to wait to be married, but since I know that many are not like me, I'm all for contraceptives!  Then (most times) the issue of what to do about the pregnancy doesn't come up.  And the CRAZY things I've heard people say about how to not get pregnant, or how a contraceptive works (like the people who think you're gonna have MORE protection wearing 2 condoms, because 'if one is good two is better' ) the sex ed we've got now, ain't gettin' through...

Chuffy, I'm so sorry to hear about your friend.  My best friend was pregnant a few years ago and the baby died.  She was crushed.  She didn't have to carry it to term.  She told me she had to go have it removed, I'm not sure if that would be considered an abortion or not, but I know she was really really crushed.  ((Hugs)) for your friend. 

Chuffy

I'm almost in tears reading this... my boss's sister has three weeks to go to her due date and has been told that the baby has just died.  She will have to carry it to term and deliver it.  Dead. 

I am so sorry to hear that.  A close friend of one of my sisters went slightly past due and was then told the baby was dead.  It was extremely hard on the parents.  The umblical cord had become wrapped around the baby's neck.  If they had induced earlier, they might have saved the infant.  Hindsight is 20-20.

My mother lost her first child shortly after birth.  The baby was breech and it was a difficult delivery. 

Mom could never talk about it (47 years of silence).  I didn't even know I had had an older sister until I was 21!   I only found out then because my youngest sister had found our birth certificates - 6 of them.

My dad even had to "hide" the child's entry in his extensive family geneology database, so it wouldn't print out.  One of the first things he did after Mom passed was to make sure that we all (5 kids) knew about our older sister.

TheDogHouseBCMPD

My best friend was pregnant a few years ago and the baby died.  She was crushed.  She didn't have to carry it to term.  She told me she had to go have it removed, I'm not sure if that would be considered an abortion or not, but I know she was really really crushed. 

An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, so, no, removing an already dead fetus would not be called an abortion.  However, the same removal techniques might be used.  Depending on the size of the fetus, removal may be easier if the contents of the skull are suctioned out and the skull allowed to collapse. 

I met one poor woman who was like your friend and went to a women's clinic for inexpensive removal.  She had to put up with protesters yelling "Don't kill your baby!"   That had to be extremely hard on her. 

  The best option for children who are not full grown and who have a higher complication rate is to carry a pregnancy?  With all due respect I completely disagree. 

Trust me, most teens are full grown by 13.  My sister was full grown at about 11.

Higher complication rate?  For abortions this is true, for pregnancy, not so much.

  Complication rates of abortion increase with younger, teen-age women. However, younger women who carry their babies to term have better births than older women if they get proper care. There is evidence that in 15 to 17 year old women, pregnancy may even be physically healthier than in women of older ages. 

 So, more teenagers want to keep their children.  I don't believe they should.  I don't believe most teens are ready for a child.  But they should give them up for adoption, not kill them.  I think we need to have more information put out there about adoption and make it an easier option.  Of course prevention is the best option.  I am with Steph on this one.
 

Abortion isn't without risks either. 

http://www.alabamapolicy.org/issues/gti/issue.php?issueID=259&guideMainID=8

Women face a number of possible physical complications as a result of legal abortion, including hemorrhage requiring transfusion, perforation of the uterus, cardiac arrest, endotoxic shock, serious unintended surgery, infection resulting in hospitalization, convulsions, undiagnosed ectopic (tubal) pregnancy, cervical laceration, uterine rupture, and death....

Seventeen percent of women participating in a study on the effects of abortion reported that they have “experienced physical complications (e.g., abnormal bleeding or pelvic infection) since their abortion.”  Based on reported abortion statistics, this percentage represents 200,000 women annually experiencing physical complications after an abortion.

janet_rose

Geez, she might even want to meet her paternal and maternal grandparents.  That would be "interesting".  Do you think either set would accept her? 

My mother has refused to ever meet her, but during her life I have met her many times. She even knows who I am. I used to be extremely emotionally screwed up after seeing her. But after a few years I started to accept her. It wasn't her fault what happened. She is her own person with her own thoughts and beliefs.However my MIL really wants to meet her. "X" family has never had anything to do with her TG!

janet_rose

This free site will allow you to track his criminal history.  I am sorry that he was not punished for what he did to you, but you had your hands full taking care of yourself.  I hope your mother at least tried to get him prosecuted and that she had a few carefully choosen "words" with his parents.

 Thank you for posting this, but in Canada you can't view things like this. And no my mother never tried. I know LOTS of girls including a family member that never won there cases, because the woman was impaired. They said we would have no leg to stand on and it could never be proved. This is how it is here. Its sad and I hate it. But all of us that have gone through it basically have no choice but to drop it.

janet_rose

 

Do you live close enough to your daughter's parents to allow her to know her siblings as "cousins"?  How old are her siblings? 

Oh yes. She knows my son is her half brother and she actually came to the hospital on her birthday when I had my daughter to meet her new sister. It was really sweet. Her adoptive parents are amazing people. My birth daughters other adoptive sister is 6-7 I can never remember. My son is 2.5yrs old and she just loves him lol.

janet_rose

  I won't ask how old your daughter is because I usually don't ask women their age.      

Honestly it does not bother me. I made this life for me, and if ever I should be ashamed of it, I need to remember that I made it that way. But I'm happy with life as a younger mother hehe

janet_rose

 

I hope your life with your husband is long and happy with lots of grandkids from your three children. 

Thank you

I would add more to this, but I guess most of what I say is purely an abortion/ adoption discussion. Plus I have so many different opinions on this subject that I can't seem to organize my thoughts. I mean apart of me wishes some guys could have some sort of say (like the man who's fiance aborted while he was at work *yuck*), but at the same time I'm glad they can't because of situations like my own- but that does leave good men out to dry no matter what. Or the fact I believe adoption should always be considered first before abortion, but I would never ask a woman to risk her life going through with the pregnancy and then to give the child to another family. I don't know, this subject has so many grey areas and each persons situation is unique. I wish it was easy to say what is the right thing to do, but it won't ever be that easy.

All I know is that we should have every right to make choices for ourselves and we should have every option available for us to choose from. But that does mean more information is needed about Adoption and abortion (instead of just abortion) to help a woman make an informed decision.

Aina

 So, more teenagers want to keep their children.  I don't believe they should.  I don't believe most teens are ready for a child.  But they should give them up for adoption, not kill them.  I think we need to have more information put out there about adoption and make it an easier option.  Of course prevention is the best option.  I am with Steph on this one.

You would force a young woman to give away her child????!!!

Good grief!