Pill Thread Got Me Thinking....

well, i see your point...

but there is a fundamental difference: pregnancy. and pregnancy is pretty tough on your body. and there can be complications which could potentially endanger the health or even the life of the mother, so i think it *should* be the woman's right to choose, since it is *her* body that has to go through it.

Steph, I think it's a very valid point, but the "abortion" debate takes on a much broader spectrum and also has the possibility of setting precedent (whether the gov't can control what choices of treatments and procedures are available).  What about women who are victims of rape, incest, statutory rape, or have life threatening pregnancies? 

Also, for me part of being sexually active is thinking things through and coming to a common understanding BEFORE someone gets pregnant.  If the man really wants to have a child and the woman doesn't, that is something that should be discussed BEFORE having sex.  Then if one person doesn't like the other person's response, they can choose not to risk getting pregnant.  If two people are in different places as far as how they would handle a pregnancy, I don't think there's any good reason for them to be sexually active.  If the guy really wants a child he should find a woman who wants to bear his child.  I don't see what's so difficult or why it's too much to expect that two adults would be on the same page before engaging in that type of activity.

Liesje

Steph, I think it's a very valid point, but the "abortion" debate takes on a much broader spectrum and also has the possibility of setting precedent (whether the gov't can control what choices of treatments and procedures are available).  What about women who are victims of rape, incest, statutory rape, or have life threatening pregnancies? 

Oh yea, I know there's more to it, deffinately not a black and white issue.  I just wanted to get some feedback on what people thought about this aspect of it. 

I don't think it should be too much for people to be on the same page, but I seriously doubt many are.

 Janet - you make a very valid point about the effect/risks on the woman's body

Another thing that for me clouds the issue is that a woman can have an abortion but if someone kills her s/he can be charged with two murders.  I find that interesting since I see a lot of people debating over when a person becomes a person and when it has rights.  I'm not agreeing one way or the other, just something to think about... 

There was a case not long ago involving a guy and gal from Bay City, MI.  They were dating, but not too seriously.  She said she couldn't get pregnant, they were having unprotected sex.  She did get pregnant and sued him for child support after the baby was born.  He countersued and tried to say that it was her fault - she said she couldn't get pregnant, knew he didn't want to have kids with her.  It got tossed out - the judge wanted to know why he wasn't wearing a condom "just in case" - as if to say, "you should have covered your butt, pal, regardless of what she told you."  It made the ABC World News.

I used to work at Health Services at the nearby university and countless young ladies would come in on Mondays for the "morning after" pills.  It would be my guess that they were more worried about their parents finding out than whether their Saturday-night hook-ups gave a darn about fatherhood.

Horrendous circumstances like incest or rape aside, if one isn't prepared to deal with the consequences of his/her actions, perhaps he/she needs to re-think those choices.

The type of situation you are talking about actually happened to my friend.  He and his finance (well ex finance now) got pregnant.  They thought no big of a deal since they already talked about having kids right away, etc. and were getting married in a few months, regardless.  They weren't preventing it, etc.  However, he got home from work one day and she told him that she had gotten an abortion without even discussing it with him first because she changed her mind about having kids.  When he freaked out (I don't blame him) she said that it was her body and she could do what she wanted with it.  His argument was that she could do anything she wanted to her body as long as it didn't harm his baby.  Needless to say, that ended their relationship immediately.  He spoke to his lawyer and he said that he had absolutely nothing to stand on and there was nothing he could do.  I felt so bad for him and still do.  He never found someone else and never had a child of his own.  He still talks about the baby he never had the chance to have.

One thing that would worry me should men have a bigger say...is the well, inarguable fact that women have been controlled in times past by the fact that men DID have a say in whether they had, kept, or aborted their kids. It was very much a control issue in our and well, world history. Womens values as people were assigned by the children they could bear, how easily they bore them, what sex they were...etc

I think if we take the number of years WOMEN have had control over whom they bed, how they do so, what confines and contracual obligations were surrounding that, their choices as to whether to concieve and carry, or not...and what their role in the lives of their children is...against those where they were NOT in control of these issues...we can truly see how important women KEEPING the rights they have now, intact...is.

It's easy to forget times when women were little more than chattel or broodmares to the men in their society. In some places it is still that way. I won't pass judgement on whether that is/was bad for the WORLD...but it is not for me...nor is it the life I want for my daughter. For that reason...pregnancy MUST remain the province of the woman...her body MUST remain in her sole control. We cannot give back the control we now have...because to do so would be like stepping back in time...and giving away a lot of the ground women have fought hard to gain in the world.

rwbeagles

For that reason...pregnancy MUST remain the province of the woman...her body MUST remain in her sole control. We cannot give back the control we now have...because to do so would be like stepping back in time...and giving away a lot of the ground women have fought hard to gain in the world.

I 100% agree with you Gina, never at any point in time should a woman give up the rights to her body. 

What I find sad is that some women abuse this and use it against men (my friend above) and forget that there is a possible future person in there.  People like my friend's ex are the type of people that radicals (left or right) hold up as examples to prove their point which is sad.

Great post Gina.

I struggle with the issue because I often cannot reconcile how I feel about it personally to how I feel about it in a broader, more legal/political sense.  There are so many emotional components it's hard to not let that come into play.  I guess that makes me a hypocrite (fight for a right that I could never personally exercise), but so be it. 

I know great men who have been trapped, abused, manipulated by women with regards to sex and babies...

It sucks...lots about it sucks...and I feel so badly for men that never know, or those that do...that a child of theirs will never be, or get stuck paying for kids they never get to see.

BUT I personally, will not give up any ground whatsoever...because of that sorrow. They as a sex really are behind women lightyears in regards to "lack of rights"...and that's perhaps harsh to say but to me, not untrue.

Liesje

Also, for me part of being sexually active is thinking things through and coming to a common understanding BEFORE someone gets pregnant.  If the man really wants to have a child and the woman doesn't, that is something that should be discussed BEFORE having sex.  Then if one person doesn't like the other person's response, they can choose not to risk getting pregnant.  If two people are in different places as far as how they would handle a pregnancy, I don't think there's any good reason for them to be sexually active.  If the guy really wants a child he should find a woman who wants to bear his child.  I don't see what's so difficult or why it's too much to expect that two adults would be on the same page before engaging in that type of activity.

Absolutely -- incredibly well said.  The decision should be all the way before sex - not after "something" happens.  It *should* be all part of the package.

If the woman wants the baby she should not be forced to end its life.... it is very much a PART of her at that point, she has a connection with it that the father does not have. Nor should she be forced to go through the process of pregnancy and birth if she does not want to.  It is HER body!  And it won't be the same again.  That does leave the father out in the cold, but as i see it the alternative is worse.

I did think for a minute, what if the father made a legal declaration that he did not want the baby.... but that wouldn't work either.  What happens when the child is older and decides he wants to know who his father is, why the man didnt want him etc....  What happens if the father changes his mind and wants to know his child?  What if the mother dies while the offspring is young?

It might seem one sided, but its the best there is I think.  Also, men /KNOW what their parts are for.  There is one sure fire way to ensure you don't get saddled with unwanted responsibility.  If only marriage was taken a little more seriously.....
 

OK, I have to reply to this.  I am sorry for the man that comes home and finds his fiancé/ gf has had an abortion...

Having said this, I am one of "THOSE" women that have been accused of trying to "trap" a man (could an ego be any bigger)

I told my fiancé that the doctors did not feel I could get pregnant.  This was the God's honest truth, the word was THINK.  I got pregnant.  It had a fit.  Told me how I did this purposely just to trap him (umh.....) just to get money..... You name it, I heard it.  I was thrown out because I wouldn't have an abortion.  I have letters....."I feel sorry for the kid, no father, a working mother, unless she wants to be another piece of welfare trash." no matter what I did, it was wrong.

I then get "Whose going to want a women of your age with no job and an infant" anything that was negative I heard.

The pregnancy was hard, very hard, I had contact with him twice when I was pregnant once to tell him they thought I would lose her (He was upset when she lived) and when she was born. He hung up on me.  I had to start from scratch, do you know how hard it is to find another job when you're pregnant.

ALL I wanted was his health insurance that would have cost next to nill.....He wouldn't.....so we went to court.....Now the *** pays child support.....A little less than a $100.00 a week.......Oh, whoopee, he spends more than that on his hobbies.

Now, he has NEVER, NEVER seen her, NEVER inquired to her well being......He has NO visitation, this is HIS choosing, I BEGGED him to be in HER life.......Nope......Then he got married but that's another story, I almost sued the State....(His wife used her job to obtain my personal info).

He knew how much I wanted our daughter to have two parents, he does this to hurt me, it does, because it will hurt her......HE HAS ALL THE RIGHTS.......He calls the courts, the courts will give him my address "He has a right to know" now.....One would think, if he were in the child's life he would know where she lived, red flag, red flag, but the law is the law.....

Anyone who has a child, and is the sole parent (regardless of child support) KNOWS it takes more than money to raise a child.....OMG.....It's hard......I DO NOTHING, NOTHING, my daughter is my life......IF I wanted to do something I am the one that has to get a babysitter.....If he wants to do something......He can do it.

He has been married (and divorced) since she's been born, this woman believed every thing he told her.....Now, if a man walks from a child, because he can.....And he wants to, just for spite......What's that say about his moral character......His commitment value, who would marry a man like this!

I have said to the courts "Let me have him sign off" "No, we can't leave your daughter without a father>"  The only time I ever hear from him, is IF the courts decide its time to reevaluate child support, then I get threats.....He has actually called the courts to get custody for spite (Having never seen her..).  He thought it would be as simple as his word, because HE BELIEVES ever negative thing that he has thought about me.....

I DID NOT get pregnant purposelly......Was I pleased YES.......JUST BECAUSE A MAN SAYS "IT'S SO" DOESN'T MEAN IT'S TRUE. 

It takes TWO, it takes TWO.......He was a big boy, well over 30, he knew where babies came from......"I took you at your word" sorry.....Yes, I'm bitter, yes I'm still angry, for my beautiful childs face......Did I mention, he tried to bribe me to have an abortion....

"I miss you so much, I want you to come home, oh, if only you weren't pregnant" who would fall for something like that.....He thought that he would be worth be aborting my child....."IF YOU KNEW WHAT LOVE WAS, YOU WOULD ABORT" Yep......

I'm sorry, there are still more men that walk then women trap, blah, blah, blah.....

I am sorry for the men that truly care, I am......But I'm also livid with the men that are  worthless scum that only care about themselves.

Oh.......When she is older an wants to meet him, I have NO doubt, this will all be hung on me, not a doubt in the world......As children become teenagers, and knowing his character "Your mom this, your mom that" yet.......

Choice?  Her choice?  His choice?  she/he who?  Mother?  Father? or the child that is a he or a she -

I'm in my mid-50's.  I've never been *able* to have a child.  I've mis-carried many times  - I can't even carry for a month. 

I just wish some of these folks with all these choices would choose to give children up for adoption so that some of us (men **and** women, by the way) who want them so badly could get them. 

Lilith brings the logical points about the years later results 'issue' into it that no one really wants to deal with here -- because 'choice' conversations are mostly about this instant.  "This time in my life ..."

The word 'choice' sounds so much more like *convenience*  ... *sigh*