rwbeagles-LAPD profiling Muslims

 You want them to feel uncomfortable because they happen to be Muslim

 I doubt dgregio's claps her/his hands with glee everytime someone Muslim is locked up because they are Muslim......the above statement is just an attempt to be nasty and discredit him/her.....

I'm not trying to be nasty, I'm referring to this:

"So as far as I am concerned if you are a young muslim man, boarding an aircraft you should be subject to search and you should expect everyone to look at you and wonder."

According to this sentence, she thinks all young Muslim men should be searched and everyone should wonder if he is a terrorist. 

Moderator speaking to ALL posting from here on out,

We needn't speak for each other...

Discuss/debate the issue as "you" see it...discuss/debate it civilly...if you cannot...take a break or simply do not post further.

I just thought of this, and am curious as to opinions as to the relationship ....

So, if racial profiling is illegal....why shouldn't affirmative action be illegal? It's still racial discrimination, right? Admittedly it "rewards" minorities instead of denying them things (well, with the exception of the poor -that is, economically disadvantaged- white farm boys here in SW VA who have access to virtually no scholarships because they're white and male) , but it is still basing things off of the color of people's skin or their religious affiliation....?

Affirmative actions attempts to right historical wrongs and correct a history of institutional, systemic inequality.   It is not that we should pretend race and ethnicity do not matter, it is that we shouldn't create oppressive policies based on racial, ethnic and religious prejudices.

we shouldn't create oppressive policies based on racial, ethnic and religious prejudices.

 But doesn't giving some people advantages based on their race simultaneously disadvantage/oppress others?I guess I am one of the few who believe that affirmative action and things like that should focus ONLY on socioeconomic status and need, NOT race.

...but I suppose I am derailing this thread a bit so I will leave my aside at that.....

Some people certainly think it does :)   Others see it as giving historically oppressed and disadvantaged people recognition to compensate for those histories of oppression and disadvantage and that it is a temporary measure for the creation of a more equal, just society.  White privilege is white privilege - it's not right that white privilege creates advantages, so how do you solve that in a real, concrete way?   It's a very difficult question.

Focusing only on socioeconomic status is a big problem because study after study shows that socioeconomic status does not trump race in terms of how people are affected by these cultural conditions.   For example, SAT scores rise with income for all students.   However, even the highest income bracket of black students perform worse as a whole than the lowest income bracket of white students, suggesting that the test and the education system is deeply affected by race in a way that income does not account for or correct.
 

inne

Muslims advertise their hate of America daily?    What?   Which Muslims?   ALL Muslims?  Muslim communities in Los Angeles?  (by the way, hating America isn't a crime)  What "rash of crimes" have Muslims in the US committed?   I don't understand how you can implicate all Muslim people in the acts of an extremely small minority.    Right now white people are committing crimes.    Right now white women are advertising their hate of America.   Is that your fault?   Should you be treated as a suspect as the result?    Should the government be suspending your civil rights?   Committing illegal acts?

It is so easy for people to say "oh, I wouldn't care if it happened to me" when they are so privileged that you don't even have to consider it ever happening to you in reality.    However, Muslim people do not have your luxuries.   Muslim people have been illegally detained in droves in America.   Muslim people have been deported on extremely questionable grounds, sometimes leaving their whole families behind.    Muslim people are currently being held without charge and have been held without charge for years.   During that time they have been tortured, denied access to legal representation, haven't even been told why they're being held.    Look at Bisher al-Rawi.  Muslim people have been thrown off planes for nothing more than flying while Muslim.   Muslim women have been forced into strip-searches because they raised "suspicion" by wearing the hijab.  The America government commits crimes against Muslim populations in America and elsewhere daily.   And yet you think Muslims are the danger?  If you knew people in your community has been abused in this way, how would religious profiling sound to you?  And, you know what?   These are people in our communities - these are our friends, our neighbours, our teachers, students, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives.   My friends are scared to fly, I worried about my friends being detained, one of my friends was questioned, had his apartment searched and his computers seized because he is an American from Iraq who publicly criticized - not threatened, criticized - the US (free speech apparently didn't matter).   That's really scary stuff.    This mapping isn't happening in a vacuum, it's part of a much broader framework of human, civil right and international law violations that are affecting people every single day in a huge variety of ways and, in the process, alienating and causing harm to millions of Americans.

The job of the government and the police is to uphold and obey the law.    Profiling of this kind is illegal.  

Human rights, civil rights are important.   Violation like this is unacceptable:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/06/27/usdom11213.htm

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=475

http://www.aclu.org/racialjustice/racialprofiling/15783prs20020116.html

http://www.aclu.org/racialjustice/racialprofiling/15867prs20020604.html

Furthermore, I would actually feel terrified if this was a plan aimed at keeping me safe.   If intelligence is so lacking that the government has to profile entire religious communities - which is unbelievably ineffective and a huge waste of resources - then I would be questioning if this is really the best they can come up with.   It is alarmist, lazy and counterproductive.    

For some real stories about how profiling has affected Muslims and why this is a huge problem, there's a great documentary called Flying While Muslim.   You can see a 10 minutes, very illuminating preview here:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2952394158092697182&q=flying+while+muslim&total=57&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 

Raed's full account of his story can be found here:

http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/2006/08/back-from-mideast.html 

I'm white and not Muslim and have been searched in a *very* up close and personal manner twice.  Not quite a strip search, but about as close as one can come, and I did not have the privilege of having it done in private.  At least one of the times I can honestly tell you that I was searched because of how I looked and where I was headed (I was going to an Insane Clown Posse show and looked the part).  If I had been wearing khakis and going to see Yanni, I seriously doubt that I would have been searched. 

In addition, as a high school senior in a post Columbine world, I can assure you that I was singled numerous times because of my dress (similar to the kids in Columbine)--by teachers and other students.  I honestly don't remember being that bothered by it, even as a bratty teenager.  People were scared and I wasn't going to change the way I dressed just to make them feel better, and teachers were required to be more watchful, so what did I expect?  Therefore, I can say with some certainty that if this was done to me on a regular basis I wouldn't be that bothered. I'd be annoyed if it inconvenienced me, but if Christians like that crazy Godhatesfags dude were threatening death to the West and backing up their point with violence, I would expect to be carefully watched.  I actually would wonder what the heck the cops where doing if they did not keep a close watch on fundimentalists.

Another thing I'd just like to mention--This is not just an American thing, the Brits are doing it as we speak (type).

I was also wondering if you had any links to studies that showed the ineffectiveness of ethnic profiling.  I did look the the links above, but to be honest they were not really from what I would consider "non-biased" sources.  It would be like me trying to defend the pro-life position by including links to pro-life websites.

I don't think it is a good idea to profile by race, as the terrorists are not stupid and would simply work on recruiting individuals of different races.  That having been said,  I DO NOT want this issue to turn into some sort of political correctness hot potato to the point that security officers are afraid to question/search someone they feel is suspicious because they could be sued/fired, etc.  I want security to do their job.  If some white soccer mom is acting suspicious, she needs to be questioned, but by the same token if some young Middle Eastern man is acting suspicious, he needs to be questioned as well.     

inne

According to this sentence, she thinks all young Muslim men should be searched and everyone should wonder if he is a terrorist. 

You have no clue inne and it really is not worth discussing it with you. You are emotional and illogical and are painting me as a muslim hating person. Go fo it as I have better things to do than argue with you.

for the record, it has nothing to do with religion or race, it is just the way the world is at this point, a few radicals who happen to be Muslim but who are willing to commit acts of terrorism have brought us to this place.

whtsthfrequency

So, if racial profiling is illegal....why shouldn't affirmative action be illegal? It's still racial discrimination, right? Admittedly it "rewards" minorities instead of denying them things (well, with the exception of the poor -that is, economically disadvantaged- white farm boys here in SW VA who have access to virtually no scholarships because they're white and male) , but it is still basing things off of the color of people's skin or their religious affiliation....?

 ROFL. Well now I will step out on the limb here. I am against affirmative action. Jobs should go to whoever is most qualified regardless of their color or race. If the white guy is the smartest then he should get the scholarship and quotas be damned. If the black guy is the smartest then he should get it. It is not fair if the scholorship is awarded to the black guy because of a quota demand, if the white guy is just as poor but happens to be smarter and have higher test scores.

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dgriego

a few radicals who happen to be Muslim but who are willing to commit acts of terrorism have brought us to this place.

DG, small request...please don't say "us"...I am no where NEAR...your "us".

The world used to be a lot of ways. Many of those ways were no more right or just than they are now...and until some people stood up and said so...things might've continued on just in those ways, or even become worse. So much might've been lost were it not for those people. I thank them...and I hope I can be like them and say NO...when America regresses, to those old ways.

whtsthfrequency

 I doubt dgregio's claps her/his hands with glee everytime someone Muslim is locked up because they are Muslim......the above statement is just an attempt to be nasty and discredit him/her.....

dgriego

If the government starts chopping off Muslims heads in the streets, just because they are Muslim, I will be one of the first to line up and fight against it.  If they start locking them up ONLY because they are Muslim then that will get me going to.

I even stated that I would take offense if people were locked up just for being Muslim, but I do not think she bothered to read that part.

You can find support of all the information previously linked in many other media sources.   One of the articles posted is from The New York Times. 

There have been a number of studies done, including a large scale law enforcement study in Minnesota and several by David Harris.   The actual studies are primarily published in journals that aren't accessible without membership to the journal.   Steven N. Durlauf has a good article called "Assessing Racial Profiling".   There is a huge body of legal literature and opinion that condemns racial and ethnic profiling as ineffective.  Here's an article that includes a link to the New York study:

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/08/22/racial_profiling/ 

Also, of the thousands of Muslim men in America questioned or detained in the months after 9/11, there was only one who was found to have any links to terrorism (and I believe he was eventually released without charge, but I'm not exactly sure).  A rate of 1/27,000+ isn't  a very effective way of finding criminals.

I don't think you hate Muslim people, I object to how you think Muslim people should be treated. 

rwbeagles

DG, small request...please don't say "us"...I am no where NEAR...your "us".

 ROFLMAO

 Why would you start a post like this and then get all upset when someone disagrees with you? Are you speaking as a moderator when you say do not use the word "us"?

  I have been labeled a bigot in this thread, of which you seem to agree based on your statement. I think that is harsh and incorrect but I will agree with you on one thing. I was mistaken to say "us".