rwbeagles-LAPD profiling Muslims

Sounds familiar to me, a minority group of people...not making a popular or mainstream choice....being isolated for special attention by gov't agencies.

 I agree, that is insanely sad and frightening.

Maybe someone can educate me more on this. This is how I see it, but I may be missing out on something...so please don't attack me, just tell me *your* point of view, as I am not here to butt heads. I am here to learn. I mean...you cannot deny that there is a lot of anti-american sentiment in the Muslim community. And a notable number/percentage of terrorist attacks/actions have been done by Muslims. I don't think they are saying all Muslims are bad, or terrorists , or anything. It is more like "acts such as this tend to more prevalent in this specific community, so we are going to keep a special eye on this community" - I don't see why that is so terrible?

Here is a (not so great) comparision with the so-called "bully breeds"..... its like saying ok, not all 'bully breeds" are dog aggressive, but these does tend to be a greater number of dog-aggressiveness/attacks/incidents with "bully breeds". {{Not to support BSL. I equate BSL with such things as arresting people without cause simply because of their race. }} I equate pit bull owners being conscientious about taking their pittie to dog parks, and things like that, with the LAPD paying special attention to the Muslim comminity. Does that make sense? Are they wrong for recognizing a trend in a community and turning attention towards it? It doesn't sounds like they are branding all Muslims terrorists.

 **runs away and hides before people start calling her racist**

Maybe I just don't understand....?

First of all, profiling in this way is not effective.   Second, it is a huge violation of civil rights and civil rights are a vital part of healthy, free, functioning democracies.   Third, this only works to alienate an already marginalized group, creating anger and resentment within those communities and reinforcing racism, oppression and discrimination by those outside the community.  Why are you assuming that Muslim communities pose a greater risk than Christian communities?   The vast majority of terrorist attacks in the US have been perpetrated by Christians, specifically white Christians.   Want to map them?   Statistically, black Americans commit a disproportionately high number of crimes (or at least they're much more likely to be charged and convicted with crimes) - but assuming that ALL black Americans are potential criminals would be seen as insanely racist, right?    So why is it okay to do it to Muslim communities?

As for being anti-American, what do you mean?   Most of the world is anti-American :)   I am anti-American in many ways, but because I am a white, educated, privileged European woman it is just called "critical thinking."   When a Muslim person disagrees with US policy she is treated like a potential terrorist.   There is a huge difference between disagreeing with US policy and actively planning to harm others and there is no evidence that Muslim people in the US are more likely to be actively planning to harm others more than anyone else.

Treat people as a danger if they are a danger, don't assume people are a danger because they are Muslim.   There needs to be evidence, not oppressive stereotypes, not racism, not suspending people's civil rights based on religion.  This type of profiling does nothing to prevent alienation, only enforce it.   If the LAPD is truly interested in preventing isolation in Muslim communities, they should look towards Muslim community leaders and find out what the needs of the community are rather than imposing this kind of insulting policy on them.
 

whtsthfrequency

I mean...you cannot deny that there is a lot of anti-american sentiment in the Muslim community.

I can...and do. Define "a lot"? I know plenty of Muslims who ARE, Americans...they do't hate themselves...lol.

whtsthfrequency

And a notable number/percentage of terrorist attacks/actions have been done by Muslims.

Many attacks and wars, and genocide, have also been fueled by Christianity or other religions...so where would you be headed with this?

whtsthfrequency

It is more like "acts such as this tend to more prevalent in this specific community, so we are going to keep a special eye on this community" - I don't see why that is so terrible?

Most serial killers are white men, who wet their beds, and live isolated lives...should they be profiled? Most people involved in hate crimes are white...ditto?

whtsthfrequency

Here is a (not so great) comparision with the so-called "bully breeds"..... its like saying ok, not all 'bully breeds" are dog aggressive, but these does tend to be a greater number of dog-aggressiveness/attacks/incidents with "bully breeds". {{Not to support BSL. I equate BSL with such things as arresting people without cause simply because of their race. }}

You are right...it's not so great...because the Muslim community is the PB....they are ALL being painted with a big, big, brush as bad people with xx mindset that should be watched...because of a few religious nuts. They are ALL in danger of losing civil liberties due to them, because of the inability of the American people to see that any group is comprised of individuals and individuals must be judged individually and not charged with the crime of their brother or sister simply because they share a race or religion. This country has run an internment camp, for just the reasons you state...was that right?

I won't call you a racist...that's not how I roll. I am happy to discuss these things as long as it remains civil.

I have learned in life, not to use a single color paintbrush the size of Texas to color one's views. I have always found it better to use a whole box of fine tip markers, erase-able ones .

inne

Treat people as a danger if they are a danger, don't assume people are a danger because they are Muslim.   There needs to be evidence, not oppressive stereotypes, not racism, not suspending people's civil rights based on religion.

Exactly. This kind of things scares me. What kind of world do we live in. I mean the 911 guys weren't hiding out in the basement of a masque waiting for the day they would fly airplanes into the WTC, they assimilated to stay under the radar. So what is this project going to accomplish exactly?

Sorry but I don't see that as profiling.  A police force has the understand the neighborhoods that they protect and it sounds like they are trying to get a better understanding.  When a police force wants to crack down on street sales of drugs or prostitution they know exactly which neighborhoods these crimes are more tolerated and where they occur.  They just don't go out there randomly.

In fact per the article

another group, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, is considering working with the LAPD on the project.

"We will work with the LAPD and give them input, while at the same time making sure that people's civil liberties are protected," said Salam al-Marayati, the council's executive director.

 I think it is also important to point out that they OK City bomber, Atlanta Olympic bomber, etc. were not Muslim, but they were terrorists. Many of the most dangerous terrorists in the world would be passed over in this LAPD thing, because they are Egyptian, Libian, etc.

My best friend in the world is 1st generation Pakistani American. She's as red, white and blue as they come, as are her parents, brothers and the rest of her family. They just worship in a masque rather than a church or synagogue. The thought of their family/community being singled out in something like this makes me embarrassed to be American.

ETA: I would hope that if they actually wanted to accomplish something with this, that they would, at the very least, enlist the help of PhD level individuals who understand the culture, can speak the language, or better yet are part of the community that the LAPD feels they don't understand.

The US doesn't exactly have a fantastic record on its treatment of Muslim "suspects".   If I was a Muslim woman in LA this would scare me to death because I would know that I am a suspect by default, that my speech would get interpreted very differently than a white, Christian woman's, that law enforcement in the US tends to have a strange way of seeing terrorists where there aren't any and then people are imprisoned for years, tortured, etc.   When the LAPD says   "We're really trying just to better understand so that we can respond and understand how Islam expresses itself in Los Angeles," what in the world does that mean in practical terms?    The LAPD is law enforcement, not a social service agency, their interest is in criminal acts which they assume are occurring or will occur in Muslim communities because they are made up of Muslims.

Then there's the legal issue.  The Council on Arab-Islamic Relations objects to this plan, as do many other Muslim and civil rights groups because, as the joint letter sent out by the ACLU, Muslim Advocates, the Islamic Shura Council of Southern California and the Council on American-Islamic Relations states, "Singling out individuals for investigation, surveillance, and data-gathering based on their religion constitutes religious profiling that is just as unlawful, ill-advised and deeply offensive as racial profiling."

Yes, I am well aware that there are many white terrorists, Christians terrorists, etc....but I guess I am thinking purely in the present, and because of all the resentment over Iraq and American's "invasion" of that whole Muslim-dominated area (of which I DO NOT approve)...I think that *today* in particular, there is a need to address the Muslim community in America and gain an understanding of what they feel.

Sorry but I don't see that as profiling.  A police force has the understand the neighborhoods that they protect and it sounds like they are trying to get a better understanding......Another group, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, is considering working with the LAPD on the project.

"We will work with the LAPD and give them input, while at the same time making sure that people's civil liberties are protected," said Salam al-Marayati, the council's executive director.

 

 

This is sort of what I gained from the article. It doesn't sound like the police are going around, breaking down doors, interrogating people, throwing people in jail etc....It sounds like the police force IS trying to work with the community and figure out what their needs are and what the sentiment is like...? It sounds like they realize that in this particular day and age there is friction between the Muslim community and American policy-making, both foreign and domestic (ie other forms of "real" profiling which, unfortunately, go on, and with which i certainly DO NOT agree with)

Now, if profiling means things like I mentioned above (ie actually throwing people's liberties in the toilet) then I completely agree with you, it is disgusting and racist. I guess that is just not how I interpreted what the LAPD are trying to do. I also agree that what would be more helpful is employing some Sociology PhDs or something.

timsdat

When a police force wants to crack down on street sales of drugs or prostitution they know exactly which neighborhoods these crimes are more tolerated and where they occur.  They just don't go out there randomly.

In fact per the article

His job is to protect and serve...and that includes the Muslim community. They would probably have gotten a lot more support had they not treated this like a profiling issue and simply gone door to door introduced themselves, walked beats in the neighborhood and fostered the spirit of community there.

If there WASN'T anti American sentiment there...there will be now...yet another group that will teach their kids to fear the police, and never offer witness testimony when asked...never aid an officer if they need ANYTHING...less kids growing up wanting to be policemen and women, less respect for the position.

Sounds like a win win!

whtsthfrequency

 

Now, if profiling means things like I mentioned above (ie actually throwing people's liberties in the toilet) then I completely agree with you, it is disguting and racist. I guess that is just not how I interpreted what the LAPD are trying to do.

What you describe isn't really profiling, that's assault, illegal searching, police brutality, etc.    Profiling is how police decide who to suspect in the first place, not their treatment of those suspects.   It assumes that members of certain racial and ethnic groups are more likely to commit crimes.  Racial profiling is illegal.    This is "real" profiling.

Here's a pretty basic but good article with practical examples:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/racial_profiling/

Here is another short explanation:

http://www.louisvillepeace.org/CAPA/racial_profiling.html

And pretty amazing videos:

http://www.aclu.tv/episodes/racialprofiling
 

Ya know LOL....I remember reading "Farewell to Manzanar" as a kid, and I really begin to worry when I read things like this article.

I have doubt...it's tiny, but it's still there...that my fellow citizens would stand up and say NO should something like that start to happen again.

rwbeagles

If there WASN'T anti American sentiment there...there will be now...yet another group that will teach their kids to fear the police, and never offer witness testimony when asked...never aid an officer if they need ANYTHING...less kids growing up wanting to be policemen and women, less respect for the position.

Sounds like a win win!

Exactly!