rwbeagles-LAPD profiling Muslims

My view will not be the most popular. I do think it is sad that this occurs, but I also understand why. If the police started stopping all white women in their mid-forties and searching their vehicles I would be upset and I would feel my rights were being violated. Now if white women in their mid-forties started a rash of crime, robbing banks, killing and advertising their intentions to continue, then I would not feel violated when stopped as I would understand that because of a portion of radical middle aged white women, my life would now be somewhat disrupted until they were all arrested.

 It is no different with Muslims. Muslims advertise their hate of America daily. A recent report suggested that they have been working for two years on a plan to disrupt our holiday season with violence. Not all muslims are bad, but you cannot tell easily which are which. The job of the police and goverment is to make certain no further attacks occur on US soil EVER. And if that means making a list of muslims then so be it. At the same time I expect them to work hard at making sure no home grown idiots commit acts of terror.

dgriego

If the police started stopping all white women in their mid-forties and searching their vehicles I would be upset and I would feel my rights were being violated. Now if white women in their mid-forties started a rash of crime, robbing banks, killing and advertising their intentions to continue, then I would not feel violated

Respectfully, everyone thinks they'd be okay with it...until it happens. And there's, IMO no possible way to know what "it" feels like...unless it's happened to you. It affects you in such a deep way that well...to me it's almost insulting, for someone who's never even been touched by racism or discrimination, or found to be guilty on sight, when they are not, to tell me they'd be okay with it if it happened to them.

Much respect dg....but I really have to say "uh huh" on this one.

Muslims advertise their hate of America daily?    What?   Which Muslims?   ALL Muslims?  Muslim communities in Los Angeles?  (by the way, hating America isn't a crime)  What "rash of crimes" have Muslims in the US committed?   I don't understand how you can implicate all Muslim people in the acts of an extremely small minority.    Right now white people are committing crimes.    Right now white women are advertising their hate of America.   Is that your fault?   Should you be treated as a suspect as the result?    Should the government be suspending your civil rights?   Committing illegal acts?

It is so easy for people to say "oh, I wouldn't care if it happened to me" when they are so privileged that you don't even have to consider it ever happening to you in reality.    However, Muslim people do not have your luxuries.   Muslim people have been illegally detained in droves in America.   Muslim people have been deported on extremely questionable grounds, sometimes leaving their whole families behind.    Muslim people are currently being held without charge and have been held without charge for years.   During that time they have been tortured, denied access to legal representation, haven't even been told why they're being held.    Look at Bisher al-Rawi.  Muslim people have been thrown off planes for nothing more than flying while Muslim.   Muslim women have been forced into strip-searches because they raised "suspicion" by wearing the hijab.  The America government commits crimes against Muslim populations in America and elsewhere daily.   And yet you think Muslims are the danger?  If you knew people in your community has been abused in this way, how would religious profiling sound to you?  And, you know what?   These are people in our communities - these are our friends, our neighbours, our teachers, students, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives.   My friends are scared to fly, I worried about my friends being detained, one of my friends was questioned, had his apartment searched and his computers seized because he is an American from Iraq who publicly criticized - not threatened, criticized - the US (free speech apparently didn't matter).   That's really scary stuff.    This mapping isn't happening in a vacuum, it's part of a much broader framework of human, civil right and international law violations that are affecting people every single day in a huge variety of ways and, in the process, alienating and causing harm to millions of Americans.

The job of the government and the police is to uphold and obey the law.    Profiling of this kind is illegal.  

Human rights, civil rights are important.   Violation like this is unacceptable:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/06/27/usdom11213.htm

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=475

http://www.aclu.org/racialjustice/racialprofiling/15783prs20020116.html

http://www.aclu.org/racialjustice/racialprofiling/15867prs20020604.html

Furthermore, I would actually feel terrified if this was a plan aimed at keeping me safe.   If intelligence is so lacking that the government has to profile entire religious communities - which is unbelievably ineffective and a huge waste of resources - then I would be questioning if this is really the best they can come up with.   It is alarmist, lazy and counterproductive.    

For some real stories about how profiling has affected Muslims and why this is a huge problem, there's a great documentary called Flying While Muslim.   You can see a 10 minutes, very illuminating preview here:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2952394158092697182&q=flying+while+muslim&total=57&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 

Raed's full account of his story can be found here:

http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/2006/08/back-from-mideast.html 

dgriego

My view will not be the most popular.... The job of the police and goverment is to make certain no further attacks occur on US soil EVER. And if that means making a list of muslims then so be it. At the same time I expect them to work hard at making sure no home grown idiots commit acts of terror.

I agree with you.

At the airports, racial profiling is a no-no.  So people are screaming profanities at Homeland Security when their 80 year old grandmother is frisked because the random processing says that she is next to be considered as a bomb-toting terrorist.  Does that make sense?

I was on the subway just short of WTC when the first bomb went off.  I was 20 miles away when the 2 planes hit the towers.  I prefer to skip the next one.

I live in LA.  Who else here does?   Because you're talking about MY back yard.  

I've lived in LA.   My parents and sister and best friends all still live there.  I was flying on 9/11 - it was the day I moved from America.   I lived in London during the 7/7 bombings, didn't know if my husband was alive and the sight of an unattended backpack still gives me panic attacks.   But we can't allow our fear or proximity excuse bigotry and the suspension of human and civil rights.  It solves nothing.

It seems you believe racial and religious profiling is effective at preventing crime.   Evidence does not show this to be true.   So if it's racist, makes people upset, hurts people AND it doesn't even work, what the point?
 

inne

Evidence does not show this to be true.   So if it's racist, makes people upset, hurts people AND it doesn't even work, what the point?

My guess would be some people like the false sense of security it buys them. Shows how far we haven't come when it comes to living together as people, instead of "race a,b,c,d and religion x,y,z"

cat0

At the airports, racial profiling is a no-no.  So people are screaming profanities at Homeland Security when their 80 year old grandmother is frisked because the random processing says that she is next to be considered as a bomb-toting terrorist.  Does that make sense?

 This is a perfect example of why it makes sense to profile. To my knowledge no 80 year old grandmother has hijacked planes and drove them into buildings killing thousands. It was young muslim men that did. I have heard no speechs from 80 year old grandmothers about death to America, but I hear them on television often, always from young extremist muslim men, and sometimes old extremist muslim men.

 So as far as I am concerned if you are a young muslim man, boarding an aircraft you should be subject to search and you should expect everyone to look at you and wonder. If you happen not to be a extremeist then yes, it does suck, but it is what it is. We did not ask for it.

 I think there are more muslims in America that are just plain Americans, than there are extremists who wish for our deaths, but because there are the few and because the radicals talk always of what they desire for America I expect that young muslim men are just going to have to deal with the situation as it is.

 Whining about it gets no sympathy from me. I am one of the ones who promised to never forget, and I meant it. I think too many have forgotten the people leaping from the buildings in flames, the bodies being carried out, the shock when the towers fell. But not me, I can recall it like it was yesterday.

Wow, that is absolutely disgusting.   Why not just make camps for young Muslim men?   Round them all up, put them to work, keep them too busy for terrorism!   How does that sound?   Because your endorsement of bigotry is based on the same premise - that all Muslims deserve to be punished. 

 I also wonder:  do you actually know any Muslim people?   Have Muslim friends?   Do you tell them you think their sons, husbands, boyfriends, fathers deserve to be suspects, deserve to be harassed and have their rights taken away?
 

inne

It seems you believe racial and religious profiling is effective at preventing crime.   Evidence does not show this to be true.   So if it's racist, makes people upset, hurts people AND it doesn't even work, what the point?

  On September 11th prior to the takeoff of the aircraft destined to be hi-jacked would racial profiling have worked? If they had stopped every single young Muslim man and done an extensive search of his person and his luggage do you think maybe the entire thing would never have happened?

 I am willing to bet things would have turned out far different had they done this. Profiling is politically incorrect, but it does work. People do not like it, but it does work. Ask a cop if profiling works.

 If you live in south central LA whom do you want the cops to bother? The well dressed looking people of all races, or the tattooed ones with their pants hanging past their butts flipping gang signs at one another. The cops know what the gangs look like and they go after and look closer at those who look like they are in a gang. It makes perfect sense to me.

 Mind you I have never been know for political correctness.

Wow...

How sad.

Inne, 100% agreed.

ETA: I guess this is the type of thing that makes you hope that reincarnation is a reality.

No studies show that religious or racial profiling works.   Many show it does not work, so I'm not sure what you're basing your assertion on.

The problem on 9/11 wasn't a lack of racial and religious profiling, it was intelligence failure at multiple levels, failure to heed multiple warnings of attack, it was security failure to detect or confiscate those box cutters (FAA allowed passengers to carry blades of less than 4";) - there are a million things that should have been done and profiling is pretty much the most useless, impractical and illegal among them.   9 of the hijackers in fact WERE selected for special security screenings, six of whom had their baggage searched for explosives of weapons.   So searching DID happen and it didn't prevent the attacks.  Searching every single young Muslim man would be impossible and a ridiculous waste of resources.    There are many ways of gathering useful intelligence - racial and religious profiling isn't one.   And if every non-white Muslim man is searched terrorist organizations will use white Muslims.   How will you identify white Muslims with American names?   Terrorist organizations adapt to their environment - they're not stupid.   A number of Hezbollah suicide attacks have been carried out by Christians - religious profiling certainly wouldn't have worked there.

I don't want the cops to bother anyone aside from people they have concrete reason to suspect of crime.   Being Muslim is not a concrete reason.   Being young and Black isn't a concrete reason.

Do you not consider the effect of these policies on Muslim communities?   Do you not realize that there is no evidence that you decrease danger, but there is a lot of evidence that you create alienation, isolation and resentment, which can lead some people to extremism?  

Last year during a trip to the US, my white, French-Canadian, atheist husband was almost prevented from boarding a plane because he had grown a beard that some people might perceive as similar to those many Muslim men grow.    Do you realize how ridiculous that is?    Creating a bigger haystack isn't going to help you find the needle, but it will waste an enormous amount of time and money and harm a lot of people. 

 

inne

 I also wonder:  do you actually know any Muslim people?   Have Muslim friends?   Do you tell them you think their sons, husbands, boyfriends, fathers deserve to be suspects, deserve to be harassed and have their rights taken away?

You are prejudiced against young Muslim men and want them singled out as potential terrorists based on their religion.   You want them to feel uncomfortable because they happen to be Muslim.   You think Muslim people are more likely to cause trouble when statistically that isn't true.  How in the world is that not prejudiced and bigoted?   For being a "realist" you seem to ignore the reality of the effectiveness and consequences of this kind of policy.   What does your friend think when you say you want her husband to feel uncomfortable at airports?   You're fine with your friend being strip-searched because she's Muslim?   That wouldn't bother you?

 America is already locking people up only because they are Muslim.    See the links I provided.   Suspecting someone only because they are Muslim is illegal.   Why are you okay with some violations of civil rights, some illegal government and police acts and policies but not others (work camps, for example)?  Why would it be wrong to force young Muslim men into work camps?    Why is it more wrong than subjecting them to religious and racist profiling and police harassment?   It is not any more illegal and it is based on the same logic.

Agreed ottoluv....but it is IMO good to have information about people's thoughts on race and religion, when they share it so very openly.

I am not posting further to this thread because well...it's made me a bit depressed. In fact, I was just going to post something a bit lighter.