Affection vs pack leader

I got interrupted in my post before and forgot to add:
"Rolling a 6-8 week old puppy won't do much harm"  - is highly debatable.  Even if dogs in the wild do this and even if they did it to display dominance and not to harm/kill, they would not do this to a puppy.  What is the point of "establishing dominance" over a puppy?  They have no status anyway!  Puppies up to the age of 16 weeks have the infamous "puppy license" and are allowed to do all manner of things in the name of play with their elders that would be considered rude in an older pup.  It doesn't mean they are "dominant".  It just means they haven't learned appropriate behaviour yet.  Even "dumb animals" in the wild can see this.... I wish more of our "intelligent species" could too!  I can't imagine how such a young puppy perceives a "roll" from a human being..... If he thought you were trying to "establish dominance" over him I imagine he would be confused and scared.  Most likely, he will just think you're playing and it will encourage him to "play" back more roughly using his teeth.  There.  Nuff said, I'm out.

P..S Great post Scout  [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif][sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

to the original OP, the ONLY time you really need to avoid handing out affection is when your pup is showing fear, or is Demanding that you pet him. If he's acting afraid of something and you pet him and reassure him, you're telling him that he was right to be fearful. So if pup shows fear, be matter-of-fact and show him that there is nothing to fear by your confident behavior. This doesn't mean you forcibly drag him up to the object of his fear!
The other, petting a dog who has Demanded you pet him, may create a bratty dog who thinks he should make the decisions.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
The other, petting a dog who has Demanded you pet him, may create a bratty dog who thinks he should make the decisions.

IMO, and I think I'm in the minority with this (I usually am), I don't see a dog asking to be petted as demanding.  Its just asking.  So whenever my dog asks to be petted and I'm not too busy, I pet her.  Shes worth it and we both enjoy it.  And she isn't a brat who thinks she gets to make decisions. 
I just still don't see the point of the human having to think of it first for it to be okay.

I don't think it's a matter of "who thought of it first". If my dog comes over to me, sits nicely and calmly, I'll pet her. I know she wants it - and she thought of it first - but she's not badgering me or being obnoxious.
 
If she comes over and noses my hand, paws at my lap, barks, etc - definitely not. Because I don't like that behavior and don't want it repeated.

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

I don't think it's a matter of "who thought of it first". If my dog comes over to me, sits nicely and calmly, I'll pet her. I know she wants it - and she thought of it first - but she's not badgering me or being obnoxious.

If she comes over and noses my hand, paws at my lap, barks, etc - definitely not. Because I don't like that behavior and don't want it repeated.

Ok, I dont see my dog pawing me to get my attention as being obnoxious or badgering.  If i want her to stop I say no and she stops.  Thats not badgering.  But if I feel like petting her then I pet her.  Still not badgering or obnoxious.  I guess it just depends on what bothers you.  I don't think it should be a set in stone rule for every dog owner though.

I think the point is that some dogs can get pretty obnoxious when demanding attention. Right down bratty. Evidently your dog is not doing this because you can definitely tell the difference.

I think it is okay to give attention when the dog asks for it.   Just not when the dog demands it.

ORIGINAL: Lilea

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

I don't think it's a matter of "who thought of it first". If my dog comes over to me, sits nicely and calmly, I'll pet her. I know she wants it - and she thought of it first - but she's not badgering me or being obnoxious.

If she comes over and noses my hand, paws at my lap, barks, etc - definitely not. Because I don't like that behavior and don't want it repeated.

Ok, I dont see my dog pawing me to get my attention as being obnoxious or badgering.  If i want her to stop I say no and she stops.  Thats not badgering.  But if I feel like petting her then I pet her.  Still not badgering or obnoxious.  I guess it just depends on what bothers you.  I don't think it should be a set in stone rule for every dog owner though.

there's a big difference between Asking for attention, and Demanding attention. Submissive dogs spend a lot of time Asking dominant dogs for attention.
If you've never encountered Demanding attention, don't worry about it. A dog that Demands attention doesn't take No for an answer, and may growl at/threaten the human who doesn't comply. Not usually seen in puppies-- a behavior of an adult dog, most commonly seen towards "lesser" members of the household like children.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

there's a big difference between Asking for attention, and Demanding attention. Submissive dogs spend a lot of time Asking dominant dogs for attention.
If you've never encountered Demanding attention, don't worry about it. A dog that Demands attention doesn't take No for an answer, and may growl at/threaten the human who doesn't comply. Not usually seen in puppies-- a behavior of an adult dog, most commonly seen towards "lesser" members of the household like children.

Okay that is different and something I have never experienced.  That would definately not be acceptable behavior.  But I don't think most dogs do that.  Especially since I have never even met one that does.

it's luckily a rare behavior. The vast majority of dogs NEVER try to "take over the household" or attempt to establish themselves as "leaders", even those with utterly clueless, highly permissive owners. Worrying about your dog trying to establish himself as the dominant member of the household is just silly. 

We've all seen kids whose parents let them get away with blue murder.... they're not "trying to take over the house" they are just taking advantage of their parents and turning into spoilt brats.  I think dogs can go the same way.... not trying to take over the house, not being dominant, just being bratty and pushy because the owners allow it and indulge it.  Sheesh if you can get away with something - why not??  It doesn't mean you want to take over paying the bills from your parents or want to take over running the company from your boss.

You cannot be an "alpha dog" because you are not a dog. The dog understands you are his leader because you control all resources, not because you "speak dog" to him. This is not necessary and can be confusing (for dog and human!) or even dangerous

What about the other thread a week or so ago with the pregnant woman who's dogs would snap at anyone who approached to give her affection? Spiritdogs had said it was the dogs protecting part of their pack, i.e., dogs viewing human behavior in a doggy way?
 
If dogs are viewing humans in a doggy way, they can see humans as an alpha, regardless of morphology, perhaps even more than wolves can. It has been proven somewhat in studies that of dogs, wolves, and chimpanzees, dogs look more to humans for cues than the other species. That it is more likely for a dog to see a human as alpha, so to speak.
 

I'm not saying dogs don't view us in a "doggy" way at times, not at all.  I agree their basic instinct regarding the "pack" is very strong.  I was saying that you cannot be an "alpha dog", not that you can't be alpha at all.  We are not dogs and dogs know it.  I was emphasising that you can be "alpha" or "leader" to your dog without trying to "mimick dog language" (staring the dog out, taking his food dish away, "alpha rolling" etc).  Simply setting some boundaries for the dog and controlling all resources is enough, when you try to do all those other things you just don't know how the dog really perceives it.  He's much better at speaking dog than we are and how do we know we're not bungling our efforts at the "language" completely?  That sort of thing leads to over-analysis and confusion.

I wish that everyone that owned a dog had to take a course on dog body language.  There are so many intricacies to their postures that we sometimes miss the subtle cues.  I mean there's several different tail wags, ear postures and body sets.  It's easy to think that one particular stance is one thing when it means something completely different.
 
To the OP:  The best thing for you and your dog is to get into puppy class.  Watch how the puppies interact.  Watch how they play.  See which dogs are initiating play, how they're initiating play, how they are terminating play.  These are important cues that they are receiving from each other.  Puppy class is like "dog speak 101" as well as social time.  They learn rules for interaction.  Most puppies learn very quickly because if they don't learn quickly the play ends.  And puppies love to play.
 
Definitely read those book suggestions, I think you'll learn alot about what to do and what not to do with your puppy.
 
Dominance rarely rears it's ugly head before a puppy reaches 12 months of age.  If you control the resources (food, outside, beds, etc) and are fair, calm and consistent, in most cases your puppy will grow up to be the dog that you want him to be.  Raising a puppy is hard work, I have always thought of it as 10 months of hard work followed by a lifetime of commitment.  What you condone now (cute behaviors like jumping up) will be the behaviors that are ingrained in your dog for it's lifetime.
 
I think the advice on this thread has been pretty good.  There's been alot of good points made.  I wish you all the best. 
 
Oh yeah the price for the advice is puppy pics!!! We wanna see puppy pics!!!

You cannot be an "alpha dog" because you are not a dog.

 
 
Totally disagree with that........