Affection vs pack leader

The instances of dogs forcibly rolling one another in the wild is rare and often only happens when the roll-er is set on hurting or killing the other dog.

 
Strongly disagree, but we already wore this one out.

Deleted.

Whether you use or condone such techniques or not, sheesh you don't go advising them to newbies to use their puppy.  I'm trying to emphasise for the benefit of the OP that they don't need to do that.  And how on earth can you disagree with the statement that you can't be an alpha dog?  The key word here being the word "dog".  How on earth do you achieve that?  Some potion that allows you to metamorphose?  A super-realistic doggy costume?  You can be "alpha" without trying (and failing miserably) to be a dog.  It just complicates matters.  Which I'm pretty sure I made clear in my last post.  I'd ask for some kind of logical argument to back up your statements rather than just a "I don't agree" (a bit non-productive and a bit of a debate killer) but in the 1st instance, you're right that's been worn out already.... and in the second instance, while I'm intrigued as to what the answer might be, I'm not even coming back to this one.  It's got totally silly.

Ok since you want to be so specific about the word itself, we will replace it with "Being", that is what I was referring to.No, we can't be dogs....duh.....but we can be the "Alpha Being "or have the "Alpha Role", does that make your Saturday, now?[8D]

And that one has been taken to infinity and beyond...... also....

Some say that if you raise your pup wrong (i.e. no rules, etc.), he will *not* become dominant, he'll just become spoiled. What's the difference between spoiled and a dominant? What does a spoiled dog do that a dominant doesn't... and vise versa?

ORIGINAL: Mastiff

You can be an affectionate leader.

I agree.  It's not an either/or situation.  Being a fair leader to your dog doesn't mean you don't also give affection.  I do think there's timing involved in giving affection, but you certainly should be giving out affection to a young puppy.  If you set the rules of the house up in a clear, simple manner that your pup can understand and learn, you'll all be happier in teh long run.

 
Great post and I agree wholeheartedly with both you and TinaK.
 
However, if I was the innocent OP in this thread, I think the methodolgy debate at her expense, would have had me running for the hills by the second page! Oh my goodness! [] 
 
Primary reason I usually only give direct advice via PMs. []

Some say that if you raise your pup wrong (i.e. no rules, etc.), he will *not* become dominant, he'll just become spoiled. What's the difference between spoiled and a dominant? What does a spoiled dog do that a dominant doesn't... and vise versa?

 
Ever dealt with a powerful breed that throws a challenge in the owner's direction?
I don't just mean being spoiled, I mean challenging the owner for the #1 spot?
 
When you bring in a rescue that makes it as difficult as possible by not fitting in a pack, bucking the owner, bucking the system so to speak, then, you will quickly learn, yikes, this dog isn't spoiled, it is an unruly dog that hasn't got a clue about disclipline, leadership and the dog will throw you a curve ball every chance it gets. I am not talking about the fearful, scaredy, whimpering dog, I am talking the one that appears to be fine until it gets warm and fuzzy, then look out.

If being spoiled is not the same as being dominant, you could have a dominant dog who is not spoiled... ?

Then, problem behaviors that dogs exhibit are either caused by dominance *or* being spoiled?

However, if I was the innocent OP in this thread, I think the methodolgy debate at her expense, would have had me running for the hills by the second page! Oh my goodness!

OK. [] Well, the suggestions are on page 1, everything else is us blathering about. Can't help it. [8D]

ORIGINAL: snownose

Ok since you want to be so specific about the word itself, we will replace it with "Being", that is what I was referring to.No, we can't be dogs....duh.....but we can be the "Alpha Being "or have the "Alpha Role", does that make your Saturday, now?[8D]

Thats exactly what Chuffy has been saying about this, you must have read his posts wrong.  His whole point was you can be alpha but you cannot be a dog as some people seem to think.  
Seriously, I think some people on this forum try as hard as they can to start fights in these threads.

We are able to speak to convey what is going on at the time.
What we have with dogs is the body language.
We also know dogs don't speak our language, isn't it fair to say that dogs watch us through their eyes and look at us as though we were dogs. I could swear my dogs are more focused on how I move and my hands than they are my words.

Thank you everyone for all the advice and ideas.  The past week has been a lot better!  Honey is jumping less and when she gets too rowdy and doesn't stop then we separate her from the kids.  I think with kids and puppies you have to take the advice that fits your family and leave the rest.  Their are always going to be debates on what to do and not do, just remember that if it works for your family and pets (and isn't hurting anyone/anything) then that is what you do. If we all did the same thing then this would be a very boring site! Thank you again and here are some pics of our little Honey
 
Sheri
 
Here are some recent pics of Honey.  She is now 13 weeks old and weighs 15 pounds.  My sister has one of Honey's brothers (Rocky)....we call him "big boy" because he weighs 25 pounds!  They have a lot of fun together and we are hoping for an early spring so we can take Honey out to play with Rocky and help herd the cattle on their farm!
 

Thats great!  I'm glad its going more smoothly

We have a dog and a cat.
 
When the cat wants to pick a fight, she will present her side and arch her back, to appear as big as possible.
 
In doggy speak, side presentation is the opposite of confrontation. It means "I'm no threat, even submissive if necessary." When she does that, Shadow just lays down.
 
That is a case of a dog viewing behavior from another non-human species in terms of doggy speak. They see the world to doggy speak eyes. So, no, they don't look at us as a really odd-looking canine, but they view what we do in terms of doggy speak and I think it's possible for humans to mimick doggy speak.

What's the difference between spoiled and a dominant? What does a spoiled dog do that a dominant doesn't... and vise versa?

 
I have yet to meet, or hear about, a dog that I really believe thought he was dominant over his adult owner. Sometimes you get dogs who feel they are dominant over children in the household, but most doggy misbehavior is simply due to lack of training. Natural dog behavior is often inconsistent with living in a human society.
 
I can't imagine trying to use "doggy speak". I watch my dogs talk to each other, and often I have no idea how they communicated what they did. The Roar-Bark and powerful lunge my alpha female uses to "discipline" our neighbors bratty puppy-- I can't do that. I physically can't.  I instead have been using a clicker and NILIF to reward the pup for not-being-bratty. Works like a charm.

mudpuppy,
When a dog in a family would only let, say, a husband groom her, biting the wife at every attempt. When a dog growls at the wife when she tries to get in the bed, but then quietly moves over to let the husband take a spot. You don't think that that dog is dominating the wife in this scenario?

If this misbehavior is due to luck of training, why is the dog 'trained' and well behaved in front of the husband? Supposedly, if she simply doesn't know how to do it, she shouldn't know no matter with whom she is interacting with.